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Expecting others to have family (and calling them selfish if they choose not too) is foolish.
But that's not what this was thread was originally is about (it think).
PS>
I had a similar discussion with some coworkers several years ago (relatively conservative group). They too equated having children as a financial decision. Yet somehow they can't see prostitution as a business decision. LOL.
Agreed with the OP. Forgoing kids is the best way for a millenial to have hope of ever retiring. With kids and spouse it's pretty much out of the question. Unless one takes great financial risks, which shouldn't be done with kids.
As one of many examples, college cost increases about 5% above inflation. 18 years from now, today's $50K education may cost $120K in today's dollars.
There have been several economic studies done over the years that show being married contributes more to building wealth than any other single factor (I have a Masters in Econ, I've seen quite a few studies regarding this.) Basically, this article sums it up pretty well:
Now of course, the key is to stay married. However, the link I posted says that a married couple has 4 times the wealth of a single, never married person. So even if a split occurs, that would still leave them with double the wealth of a single person.
(This particular article says that a divorce tends to leave people in worse financial straights than people who never married. That doesn't correlate with the research studies I've seen, but times change. Most likely, people who divorce today have problems with living within their new income bracket, vs how they used to live before the divorce, and they run into problems.)
RecentGrad touched on this a little bit, with these reports that married people are "wealthier" the question is what came first, the chicken or the egg?
- Was I a boring, bland and dumb man before I got married, then I met this "amazing woman" and all of a sudden she helps me discover the MAN in me? Then I go out there and start knocking out degrees and knocking down $200,000 a year?
- Or, was I already on the path to the great income or perhaps already making it when she met me? Which is what attracted her to me in the first place? You know, women want a "real man" and a real man is defined as, "A fool that will let me live off him and sit at home all day on Facebook flirting with other men, while he's slaving away for 12 hours at a job".
A marriage could potentially be more financially rewarding than a solo act, IF both of the players are stars and contributors. For example, if I'm making $100k right now and my wife is making $65k, combining that means we now have $165,000 a year to play with. If we both know how to budget, save and invest, then we would be getting off further ahead than being solo as the expenses (with the creation of the 2-3 kids) would be easily managed.
But if I'm making $100k and this CHICK wants to come and sit around all day under some pseudo title called, "housewife" when everything within the house is automated and doesn't require her to be in the house all day like this is 1932......when you throw 2-3 kids on top of that.....how am I more financially well off when my expenses just doubled or probably tripled?
Marriage is a flat out scam today, I said it before and I will keep saying it. There's no benefits for a man to get married today if he's already established making $100k or hey, even making $50k. If the man is already in the middle class by himself there's NO FINANCIAL BENEFITS to getting married. Getting married only means you have a Woman, a Family Court System and entitled spoiled brat kids who believe that YOUR MONEY = THEIR MONEY.
Marriage is a flat out scam today, I said it before and I will keep saying it. There's no benefits for a man to get married today if he's already established making $100k or hey, even making $50k. If the man is already in the middle class by himself there's NO FINANCIAL BENEFITS to getting married. Getting married only means you have a Woman, a Family Court System and entitled spoiled brat kids who believe that YOUR MONEY = THEIR MONEY.
I would say that the institution of marriage, as something 'must do' or even 'sacred' is wrong. Two mature human beings don't need a piece of paper. And frankly, as happily married as I am for over a decade, I too sometimes have doubts because--hmmm--there are other women who appear younger/more appealing. Also, marriage introduces the dramas from in-laws. Also, marriage seems to restrict my mobility for career advancement. Imagine these concerns despite NOT having kids?! Now factor in kids!
But I don't look at marriage as a financial transaction at all. I am the bread-winner but the wife still contributes significantly both financially and in keeping the house going. Then there are mutual human needs. Trust. Social circles. Travel. Someone to 'lean on' for both of us. We are a couple and friends of each other. If the piece of paper gives her 'security' then so be it; I too gain a lot by having a 'secure' wife.
I wouldn't trade the stability and all the above in my life for some other woman. And, yes, I have to have a woman in my life. Call it human nature.
Not starting a family is one of the best ways for millenials to cope with financial trouble.
One. You can save more efficiently.
Two. You have more time to better your skills and employment , which leads to greater earning potential.
Three. You have a whole lot more leisure time to focus on fitness and quality of life, which then save healthcare cost.
Four. You are less stressed, sleep in everyday, quiet weekends, long breakfasts, and more time socializing with friends. It increases your happiness.
Five. You may be able to take more vacations and travel, which refreshes you and recharges your battery.
How many working people do you know who sleep in every day? What are you talking about? I know very few millennials who are having kids, anyway. The few that are can well afford it. Most aren't in a hurry to even get married, let alone have kids. I really think they can figure this out for themselves.
I would say that the institution of marriage, as something 'must do' or even 'sacred' is wrong. Two mature human beings don't need a piece of paper. And frankly, as happily married as I am for over a decade, I too sometimes have doubts because--hmmm--there are other women who appear younger/more appealing. Also, marriage introduces the dramas from in-laws. Also, marriage seems to restrict my mobility for career advancement. Imagine these concerns despite NOT having kids?! Now factor in kids!
But I don't look at marriage as a financial transaction at all. I am the bread-winner but the wife still contributes significantly both financially and in keeping the house going. Then there are mutual human needs. Trust. Social circles. Travel. Someone to 'lean on' for both of us. We are a couple and friends of each other. If the piece of paper gives her 'security' then so be it; I too gain a lot by having a 'secure' wife.
I wouldn't trade the stability and all the above in my life for some other woman. And, yes, I have to have a woman in my life. Call it human nature.
Good points. And the in-law drama, as far as I've observed, is a cliche that doesn't come up for most couples. Most in-laws have the sense to stay out of the couple's personal decisions. I don't know of anyone who has had their mobility restricted for career advancement, just by getting married. How would it restrict your mobility, for example, since your wife doesn't work? She's free to relocate with you, as need be. The marriage gig isn't as bad as some people make it out to be, as long as people don't bring unresolved issues from the past into it, and make good choices.
American parents should consider that today. It's not easy or cheap. Even if school is free there's room and board. But the kids will be better off emigrating to a country with a higher standard of living. (You can't expect them to return. My niece went to college in Germany and never looked back.)
There is no legacy just because you have kids. When you die you die. Your kids aren't you. They have their lives. This legacy thing is superstition.
I would say the benefits of having kids are more about the joy of it and the help they may provide when you are very old. There are benefits. But in this country in the next several decades, the drawbacks are huge.
There are also economic benefits. The economy needs a stable population to continue growing. Population decline is economic decline. Period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by meengla
Absolutely correct!
And yet it amazing how many people fall for such superstitions. Even atheist/agnostic and very smart people. I have a best friend who has been convincing me to reproduce for over a decade, using the same 'legacy' argument. I have stubbornly refused, telling him I don't believe in the legacy crap; I also told him that is argument that humanity advances when 'smart' people like me reproduce maybe valid but, sorry, I am not a damn guinea pig for human civilization. I have been telling him IF I run into a lot of money then I might consider kids.
But he actually followed through with his own convictions and reproduced into this mid-40s and ended up with twins. I really really wish him a happy life but there are already concerns of his marriage under huge stress while the babies are not even 2 years old. And IF his marriage does fall apart then what are the consequences for his kids?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Retroit
I agree the legacy thing is a joke, along with "preserving the family name". When I look around at humanity, I don't see many legacies being made or lived, nor many family names I would be proud to have. The swarms of humanity overpopulating our major cities living paycheck-to-paycheck in sub-standard conditions is truly depressing. Not to mention a prison population of 2 million plus another 5 million on probation or parole.
My legacy is that I will leave this earth (in due time, I have no intention of rushing it ) knowing I have left nothing behind...well except for the 64 tons of garbage at the local landfill that I have contributed over my lifetime.
Aren't we just a collection of miserable, lonely, money-loving people in this country?
Our birth rate is under 2.1. American society is shrinking without immigration. Please, all of you naysayers don't reproduce so we can allow more of the hard working third world culture to replace our screwed up greedy entitled culture.
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I know very few millennials who are having kids, anyway. The few that are can well afford it. Most aren't in a hurry to even get married, let alone have kids. I really think they can figure this out for themselves.
When I look around at humanity, I don't see many legacies being made or lived, nor many family names I would be proud to have. The swarms of humanity overpopulating our major cities living paycheck-to-paycheck in sub-standard conditions is truly depressing. Not to mention a prison population of 2 million plus another 5 million on probation or parole. 
) knowing I have left nothing behind...well except for the 64 tons of garbage at the local landfill that I have contributed over my lifetime. 
