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Insurance doesn't always pay out on claims. They will weasel out if they can, say that you made a mistake, did not document something, say something is not covered, etc.... In my experience the most reliable insurance is life. When my dad got sick he had various insurances, but not all of them paid or paid out in full, most significantly his health insurance (this was back in the 80s/90s). What did pay was his life insurance after he died. In full and almost immediately. Can't argue with a death certificate. That should tell you something.
Something else people take for granted is their mental health. When you think you're going to die, you don't always think logically or make the best decisions. You're scared, paranoid, angry, irrational, depressed all of the above and more. My dad made a few bad decisions because he would have a flare-up & convince himself he would be dead in a few months... well he lasted 12 years.
What I can't emphasize enough is how scared people get when they think they might die soon. The best financial decisions are not made in that context.
Last edited by redguard57; 03-13-2018 at 10:08 AM..
Pray tell mysticaltyger - what degree of control was had on this? People who are so pious...shouldn't throw stones and pride goeth before a fall, as they say.
See this is exactly what I mean.
People will bring up the exceptions to the rule and ignore the other 10 people who had a very large role in messing up their health. We see people messing up their health all around us every day, but we are somehow completely blind to it. America has the most unhealthy lifestyle habits on the planet but we sit here and talk endlessly about genetics being the major factor behind health issues, and anyone who points out elephant in the room is "pious" and "throwing stones".
Again, poverty is like an abusive relationship or an addiction problem. It's not a switch that you turn on and off. Saying "stop it!" to poor people will not change anything because they need more than words.
A lot of middle class people don't see the advantages they have right in front of their faces. From working with actual poor people, what they need is cash. Straight-up cash to buy things like daycare or a reliable vehicle. Those two things in particular are what I often see as a barrier to success. Kids have to be taken care of... the stable middle class families have reliable grandparents, jobs with daycare centers, family networks, a spouse with a decently-paying part-time job with flexibility. If the kid gets sick and they stay home, they lose their job, and the cycle starts over again. Same with the car. Car breaks down, they don't have the cash to fix it immediately, they don't show for work so they get fired. Cycle starts up again.
Another HUGE benefit taken for granted is, quite frankly, reliable & ethical people around you. If my car breaks down, I can afford to fix it. In the interim, I'll still make it to work. I have a wife with a car, I have friends at work who will give me a ride, I have middle class neighbors who are trustworthy and would give me a ride. I have an enormous network benefit there; all of them people I can count on. Poor people often don't. They are surrounded by other people who are not reliable or worse, will take advantage of them.
Something else taken for granted is the time to actually think & not having multiple stressors. I spent months creating my long-term investment plan - read several books, read hundreds of pages of online investment advice & then took a couple weeks to actually write out the asset allocation plan & choose the particular investment vehicles. I have the leisure time to do that... also I have an extensive education so I know how to learn something like that on my own. Also, not to be taken for granted, I have successful people in the family that I trust, ie: an uncle who was a banker for 20 years, to consult on things like what is a good mortgage loan and what is not.
I'm for universal basic income. All the anti-poverty programs with strings attached don't help, they're just value judgements masquerading as social welfare. Ironically the conservatives who want this kind of thing often rail against "social engineering" - but that is precisely what they themselves do. Programs with strings cost just as much to administer as they actually give out, because educated middle class people making 40-60k with health insurance have to do all the reviews, verifications, oversight, etc..., Then people making 30-40% more have to do all the management of those case-workers, and so on.
Just give them an agreed-upon amount of money, period. Cut down the administration staff, cut down the bloat, stop trying to make people jump through hoops. I think you'd be surprised at how many people would use the money responsibly. They won't all invest it and become millionaires, but I think it would be surprising how many would use it for living expenses and NOT "blow it on drugs" or some such that people accuse the poor of always wanting to do. In the end it'll probably be cheaper than running the programs we have, with all the case workers, analysts, counselors, etc..., all employed by the government and requiring 50k + health insurance. It's that army of bureaucrats that makes those programs expensive. It's like health care... that is not expensive because of the cost of Tylenol or the cost of keeping the lights on at the hospital. It's because of the veritable ARMY of staff at any health care provider, ALL of whom make middle or upper-middle salaries with benefits.
Alternatively, if you're dead set that they just HAVE to break their back to prove that they're deserving, then go the New Deal route and just create jobs for them that do something for the public benefit, ie: street cleaning, environmental maintenance, manning a help-desk, whatever.
Last edited by redguard57; 03-14-2018 at 01:15 PM..
Again, poverty is like an abusive relationship or an addiction problem. It's not a switch that you turn on and off. Saying "stop it!" to poor people will not change anything because they need more than words.
A lot of middle class people don't see the advantages they have right in front of their faces. From working with actual poor people, what they need is cash. Straight-up cash to buy things like daycare or a reliable vehicle. Those two things in particular are what I often see as a barrier to success. Kids have to be taken care of... the stable middle class families have reliable grandparents, jobs with daycare centers, family networks, a spouse with a decently-paying part-time job with flexibility. If the kid gets sick and they stay home, they lose their job, and the cycle starts over again. Same with the car. Car breaks down, they don't have the cash to fix it immediately, they don't show for work so they get fired. Cycle starts up again.
Another HUGE benefit taken for granted is, quite frankly, reliable & ethical people around you. If my car breaks down, I can afford to fix it. In the interim, I'll still make it to work. I have a wife with a car, I have friends at work who will give me a ride, I have middle class neighbors who are trustworthy and would give me a ride. I have an enormous network benefit there; all of them people I can count on. Poor people often don't. They are surrounded by other people who are not reliable or worse, will take advantage of them.
Something else taken for granted is the time to actually think & not having multiple stressors. I spent months creating my long-term investment plan - read several books, read hundreds of pages of online investment advice & then took a couple weeks to actually write out the asset allocation plan & choose the particular investment vehicles. I have the leisure time to do that... also I have an extensive education so I know how to learn something like that on my own. Also, not to be taken for granted, I have successful people in the family that I trust, ie: an uncle who was a banker for 20 years, to consult on things like what is a good mortgage loan and what is not.
I'm for universal basic income. All the anti-poverty programs with strings attached don't help, they're just value judgements masquerading as social welfare. Ironically the conservatives who want this kind of thing often rail against "social engineering" - but that is precisely what they themselves do. Programs with strings cost just as much to administer as they actually give out, because educated middle class people making 40-60k with health insurance have to do all the reviews, verifications, oversight, etc..., Then people making 30-40% more have to do all the management of those case-workers, and so on.
Just give them an agreed-upon amount of money, period. Cut down the administration staff, cut down the bloat, stop trying to make people jump through hoops. I think you'd be surprised at how many people would use the money responsibly. They won't all invest it and become millionaires, but I think it would be surprising how many would use it for living expenses and NOT "blow it on drugs" or some such that people accuse the poor of always wanting to do. In the end it'll probably be cheaper than running the programs we have, with all the case workers, analysts, counselors, etc..., all employed by the government and requiring 50k + health insurance. It's that army of bureaucrats that makes those programs expensive. It's like health care... that is not expensive because of the cost of Tylenol or the cost of keeping the lights on at the hospital. It's because of the veritable ARMY of staff at any health care provider, ALL of whom make middle or upper-middle salaries with benefits.
Alternatively, if you're dead set that they just HAVE to break their back to prove that they're deserving, then go the New Deal route and just create jobs for them that do something for the public benefit, ie: street cleaning, environmental maintenance, manning a help-desk, whatever.
You have laid out a very reasonable argument and one I agree with. But a lot of these posters will just say "then don't have kids". Ironically, a lot of the "personal responsibility" people are the same ones who think that sex ed should not be taught in school unless abstinence only. They don't want you to learn about how to responsibly delay having a kid, but once you have a kid, they also tell you that you are on your own.
Middle class people don't understand the cycle of poverty and all they do is offer platitudes. They don't understand that a $150 parking ticket is an annoyance to them, but the difference between rent and food for poor people. and if you accumulate 2-4 unpaid tickets, you have to go to court, lose your license and can't get to work.
They don't understand that if you are born poor, you are 2 years behind from language development skills by the time you are 7!!!!!!!! (Link)
They don't understand how damaging to your psychological health is growing up in an environment with abusive relatives, gang violence etc. (link)
They think that the main difference between rich and poor is effort. While "the hard workers" are putting in a couple of extra hours in an AC office, the poor are out there using their brand new iPhones, wearing new sneakers and listening to Beatz headphones. Therefore, the poor deserve what they have coming to them and if only they were willing to go to college, study chemical engineering and work hard, they, too, could have a nice retirement.
I was reading another thread and it got me thinking. I am doing well in life. I went to a good school, got a good job and so did my wife. We save a pretty good amount and if things continue that well, we will be in a great spot.
However, all of this can collapse in a moment. If I get some chronic disease that prevents me from working, get in a car accident etc. our savings will get nuked. Maybe not in one month. Not in a year. But eventually with the way things are in America you will not be able to pay medical bills or afford insurance.
So basically, I feel that people here overstate the value of discipline and underestimate luck. Yes it is very important, but one unlucky thing can obliterate everything you have worked for.
Unless you are fabulously wealthy, a serious illness pretty much guarantees you are wrecked financially.
The assumption here seems to be that if you haven’t saved enough it is because you drove a BMW, went to Hawaii 8 times a year, and bought a 6k sq ft house.
I feel that’s pretty sanctimonius.
I don't think what you are saying is untrue. I don't agree with calling people 'sanctimonious' over it. We are all born with certain abilities or disabilities. You can take two siblings with the same basic qualities and opportunity or two unrelated people with the same basic qualities or opportunity and compare them. With the exception of some catastrophe in whatever shape or form, such as health, the outcome of the people's life is going to be based on choices they made.
It's easy to to complain about other people. Many of the complaints I hear from the more vocal of the 'poor' people is they are mad at other people for having more wealth than them. One of the easiest ways to be poor is to become a parent without having the physical and financial resources to to raise children. If you were to observe the circumstances of many of those complaining, you would find that many of them or their parents created obstacles in their life rather taking or creating opportunities. The people who you refer to as being sanctimonious may have taken what they were born with and not made it worse. They aren't going to apologize for making the best of it.
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