Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
I don't think what you are saying is untrue. I don't agree with calling people 'sanctimonious' over it. We are all born with certain abilities or disabilities. You can take two siblings with the same basic qualities and opportunity or two unrelated people with the same basic qualities or opportunity and compare them. With the exception of some catastrophe in whatever shape or form, such as health, the outcome of the people's life is going to be based on choices they made.
Truth.
I won't go into a lot of detail but my sibling actually had more opportunities since she had a slavishly doting mother who would do anything or sacrifice anything for her.
But even random health events sometimes depend on the choices you make. If you skip mammograms for five years and then feel a lump in your breast...well, the other sibling doesn't skip them. And that's why the one sibling suffered through months of treatment and the other didn't. The other sibling went in promptly and had an ultrasound-guided biopsy when her mammogram seemed to show a mass. (Turned out there wasn't a mass.)
OK, cue the sad stories about how no one can afford health insurance.
Quote:
It's easy to to complain about other people. Many of the complaints I hear from the more vocal of the 'poor' people is they are mad at other people for having more wealth than them.
I belong to an Amazon seller forum where a daily topic of discussion among those who aren't making any sales is that the sellers who have created a good income for themselves are just "lucky." Because there couldn't possibly be any other factor, like using the correct keywords, good pictures, writing persuasive sales text...
This "You were just lucky!" meme has spread. Apparently some people find it comforting.
You have laid out a very reasonable argument and one I agree with. But a lot of these posters will just say "then don't have kids". Ironically, a lot of the "personal responsibility" people are the same ones who think that sex ed should not be taught in school unless abstinence only. They don't want you to learn about how to responsibly delay having a kid, but once you have a kid, they also tell you that you are on your own.
I am one of those "personal responsibility" people and I RESENT being lumped into the "abstinence only" crowed. Furthermore, people DO have choices if they have kids they can't afford. They're called abortion and adoption. I'm a big advocate of choices, but it seems to me, people did better when they had fewer options 50 years ago than when they gained more.
From working with actual poor people, what they need is cash.
I think you did a good job laying out all the issues poor people face. The problem is, cash doesn't really fix ANY of those underlying issues (lack of family support, and environment where integrity and honesty are lacking, widespread ignorance the norm, etc.).
If simply giving people money worked, then 70% of lottery jackpot winners wouldn't be broke again within 5 years. Interestingly enough, that's about the same percentage of the population who live payday to payday.
I think you did a good job laying out all the issues poor people face. The problem is, cash doesn't really fix ANY of those underlying issues (lack of family support, and environment where integrity and honesty are lacking, widespread ignorance the norm, etc.).
If simply giving people money worked, then 70% of lottery jackpot winners wouldn't be broke again within 5 years. Interestingly enough, that's about the same percentage of the population who live payday to payday.
$7500 could buy them a working car that should last a while.
An extra $1k a month for a year could upgrade them to an apartment out of whatever environment they're in while they get a better job.
Another $500 a month could pay for daycare.
Those 3 things - 1) reliable transportation, 2) a non-toxic environment (meaning mostly the people around them), and 3) childcare are the three biggest barriers that poor people face in the work I've done with them. Hell, if they can get away from #2 that's more than half the battle, because they are usually pretty savvy at figuring out ways to #'s 1 and 3.
Another way to do it would be to finance dormitories at community colleges or low-tiered universities, comp their room and board, provide daycare centers on site, and buy them a basic car like a Toyota Yaris or something. Of course people would hate that, and it would be more expensive to administer than just giving equivalent cash grants for them to do those things.
I'm 31 and have never had any serious illnesses or injuries. I've been able to take jobs across the country, moving completely alone and doing the vast majority of the work myself, that someone in poor health couldn't do. I rarely miss work due to illness. I've never been saddled with medical bills.
I'm dating a girl that's 22 and has lupus. The difference in health is just enormous. She has hip issues from the steroids from the lupus treatment, and is waiting on a hip replacement surgery. She can't work. She's dependent on others for transportation and can't drive now. If we're going out in public, I have to try and figure out stuff to do/places to go that are wheelchair accessible. We went to one of my favorite restaurants in a downtown area that isn't configured for mobility limited people. We had to go somewhere else.
Health is basically building block #1 in being able to recover from a financial setback or other problem. If you don't have decent health, your odds of getting back on the right track are very low.
Again, poverty is like an abusive relationship or an addiction problem. It's not a switch that you turn on and off. Saying "stop it!" to poor people will not change anything because they need more than words.
A lot of middle class people don't see the advantages they have right in front of their faces. From working with actual poor people, what they need is cash. Straight-up cash to buy things like daycare or a reliable vehicle. Those two things in particular are what I often see as a barrier to success. Kids have to be taken care of... the stable middle class families have reliable grandparents, jobs with daycare centers, family networks, a spouse with a decently-paying part-time job with flexibility. If the kid gets sick and they stay home, they lose their job, and the cycle starts over again. Same with the car. Car breaks down, they don't have the cash to fix it immediately, they don't show for work so they get fired. Cycle starts up again.
Another HUGE benefit taken for granted is, quite frankly, reliable & ethical people around you. If my car breaks down, I can afford to fix it. In the interim, I'll still make it to work. I have a wife with a car, I have friends at work who will give me a ride, I have middle class neighbors who are trustworthy and would give me a ride. I have an enormous network benefit there; all of them people I can count on. Poor people often don't. They are surrounded by other people who are not reliable or worse, will take advantage of them.
Something else taken for granted is the time to actually think & not having multiple stressors. I spent months creating my long-term investment plan - read several books, read hundreds of pages of online investment advice & then took a couple weeks to actually write out the asset allocation plan & choose the particular investment vehicles. I have the leisure time to do that... also I have an extensive education so I know how to learn something like that on my own. Also, not to be taken for granted, I have successful people in the family that I trust, ie: an uncle who was a banker for 20 years, to consult on things like what is a good mortgage loan and what is not.
I'm for universal basic income. All the anti-poverty programs with strings attached don't help, they're just value judgements masquerading as social welfare. Ironically the conservatives who want this kind of thing often rail against "social engineering" - but that is precisely what they themselves do. Programs with strings cost just as much to administer as they actually give out, because educated middle class people making 40-60k with health insurance have to do all the reviews, verifications, oversight, etc..., Then people making 30-40% more have to do all the management of those case-workers, and so on.
Just give them an agreed-upon amount of money, period. Cut down the administration staff, cut down the bloat, stop trying to make people jump through hoops. I think you'd be surprised at how many people would use the money responsibly. They won't all invest it and become millionaires, but I think it would be surprising how many would use it for living expenses and NOT "blow it on drugs" or some such that people accuse the poor of always wanting to do. In the end it'll probably be cheaper than running the programs we have, with all the case workers, analysts, counselors, etc..., all employed by the government and requiring 50k + health insurance. It's that army of bureaucrats that makes those programs expensive. It's like health care... that is not expensive because of the cost of Tylenol or the cost of keeping the lights on at the hospital. It's because of the veritable ARMY of staff at any health care provider, ALL of whom make middle or upper-middle salaries with benefits.
Alternatively, if you're dead set that they just HAVE to break their back to prove that they're deserving, then go the New Deal route and just create jobs for them that do something for the public benefit, ie: street cleaning, environmental maintenance, manning a help-desk, whatever.
A large portion of the generational poverty problem goes back to poor parenting and geographic disadvantages.
I had two teachers for parents that read to me and pushed me to do well in school from an early age. I socialized with, for the most part, peers that had parents with similar goals. To some extent, the kids also pushed each other because of the reinforcement they were getting in their home life. It created a virtuous cycle of parents wanting the kids to do well, kids pushing each other, mostly decent teachers, etc. I was also bright, and most of my friends were also bright. We basically self-sorted. It's hard for a bunch of bright kids with middle class parents pushing each other to really fail in life. Out of my immediate social circle, I can only think of one "washout."
Things have changed in my hometown since then. The manufacturing job base that once kept the town solidly middle class has been badly eroded. Almost all of the decent jobs are for the hospital systems, local government/education, with a smattering elsewhere. The main retail strip that used to be mostly middle class retail is now mostly rent to own, cash for gold, payday lenders, pawn shops, and other "poor people" businesses. Drugs and drug-related crime have ravaged the community compared to what it was. In general, those with education and skills have left, and the remaining residents are largely those who are not as economically productive. It's a circling the drain phenomenon.
If you're born poor in a major city, it's much easier to succeed because there are resources around you to point a determined kid/family in the right direction. Here in Appalachia, that is much tougher to come by.
A large portion of the generational poverty problem goes back to poor parenting and geographic disadvantages.
I had two teachers for parents that read to me and pushed me to do well in school from an early age. I socialized with, for the most part, peers that had parents with similar goals. To some extent, the kids also pushed each other because of the reinforcement they were getting in their home life. It created a virtuous cycle of parents wanting the kids to do well, kids pushing each other, mostly decent teachers, etc. I was also bright, and most of my friends were also bright. We basically self-sorted. It's hard for a bunch of bright kids with middle class parents pushing each other to really fail in life. Out of my immediate social circle, I can only think of one "washout."
Things have changed in my hometown since then. The manufacturing job base that once kept the town solidly middle class has been badly eroded. Almost all of the decent jobs are for the hospital systems, local government/education, with a smattering elsewhere. The main retail strip that used to be mostly middle class retail is now mostly rent to own, cash for gold, payday lenders, pawn shops, and other "poor people" businesses. Drugs and drug-related crime have ravaged the community compared to what it was. In general, those with education and skills have left, and the remaining residents are largely those who are not as economically productive. It's a circling the drain phenomenon.
If you're born poor in a major city, it's much easier to succeed because there are resources around you to point a determined kid/family in the right direction. Here in Appalachia, that is much tougher to come by.
Yes, similar issues afflict Native American reservations and the like.
I come from one of the poorest parts of Texas so we probably have similar experiences just in different settings. There were definitely "environmental problems" that held people back - lots of rent-to-own, payday lenders, etc... like you mention, just in Spanish.
One's peers are extremely important. My high school girlfriend was a great example. In middle school she started hanging out with the "honors" kids and was involved in music - band/choir - which included mostly the dorks who cared about working hard in school. The contrast with her two brothers, who hung with the kind of crowd you'd expect for the neighborhood they lived in, could not be more stark. She is now a middle-manager for a mid-size corporation making something like 90-100k a year (in Texas, which is quite good money), while her brothers have been in and out of jail and barely sustain themselves.
It was kind of sad in a way because her family mostly shunned her. They think that she thinks she's better than them now & refuse to talk to her.
Even with that, because she did not have the middle class "training" that her peers had, she had some debt trouble because she was never "trained" about how to evaluate things like loans. But she makes enough money that she was able to Dave Ramsey her way out of it.
You could be as healthy as hell and get hit with a brick walking down a street. You could be stopped at a light and get slammed broadside by a drunken driver. You could be sitting in a classroom and get shot by a manic. There are multiple children who survived but are disabled for life and facing numerous surgeries. The Press doesn't report that.
Our son joined the Navy when he was a healthy 18 yr old and was left an epileptic due to poor administration of vaccines when he was sent to the Gulf war.
Those people, including my son had 'bad luck.'
However, I know people who were in the right place at the right time and it changed their lives. I know people who had teachers who supported them and guided their lives when they had no support from family. They became success stories.
I know someone close to me who was one of 8 children born to poor parents who got a job after high school driving a cab. Picked up a wealthy passenger in NYC who liked him and gave him his card, told him to give him a call. He did and became a millionaire without college education. The patron in the cab was the CEO of AT&T. Gave him a low wage job initially and helped him raise himself within the Company until he learned enough about computers to start his own business.
Fooling around with computers he developed a little character which was seen by Microsoft and they offered him a lot of money to buy the character.
This was someone who had parents who worked hard as a cleaning woman and a superintendent of a building. All 8 kids shared one bedroom in that building. If you talk to this man, he will tell you it was fate or pure luck that these things happened to him.
He helped his parents and siblings, still does as none of the other siblings had his luck.
I feel certain people just can't get a break no matter how hard they try. Others just seem to attract people who advance their lives. Maybe its personality, maybe its just being in the right place at the right time.
I dont see anything wrong with helping the poor to be given a chance to better the lives of their children. It benefits society.
I know so many people who can never get ahead, they can't afford childcare (who can?), a car to get to work, healthcare.
Everyone blames poor people from having children, yet they are against birth control /abortion. Many people are religious and do not believe in birth control. So they have multiple children they can't afford.
I count myself lucky. I met a wonderful man 47 yrs ago by chance. We raised two wonderful children. My husband is 85 now and suffers from health problems not caused by poor health habits. Old age happens to us all and nothing we eat is going to stop the process of growing old.
But, we are still alive and I consider that very good luck!
You could be as healthy as hell and get hit with a brick walking down a street. You could be stopped at a light and get slammed broadside by a drunken driver. You could be sitting in a classroom and get shot by a manic. There are multiple children who survived but are disabled for life and facing numerous surgeries. The Press doesn't report that.
Our son joined the Navy when he was a healthy 18 yr old and was left an epileptic due to poor administration of vaccines when he was sent to the Gulf war.
Those people, including my son had 'bad luck.'
However, I know people who were in the right place at the right time and it changed their lives. I know people who had teachers who supported them and guided their lives when they had no support from family. They became success stories.
These random events can happen to anyone. All you can do is try and minimize your own risky behaviors, and to try to reasonably mitigate the risk posed by other people.
For instance, I like to go to bars. I'm rarely, if ever, at a bar beyond 10 PM, and never past midnight. I also try to frequent bars that have a good reputation and are not just "rough watering holes." If I drink more than three beers, I just uber home. I try to minimize my own risk but not driving after I've had a lot to drink, and try to minimize the risk from others from not being at bars late at night or at rough bars where things tend to get out of control.
Yes, similar issues afflict Native American reservations and the like.
I come from one of the poorest parts of Texas so we probably have similar experiences just in different settings. There were definitely "environmental problems" that held people back - lots of rent-to-own, payday lenders, etc... like you mention, just in Spanish.
One's peers are extremely important. My high school girlfriend was a great example. In middle school she started hanging out with the "honors" kids and was involved in music - band/choir - which included mostly the dorks who cared about working hard in school. The contrast with her two brothers, who hung with the kind of crowd you'd expect for the neighborhood they lived in, could not be more stark. She is now a middle-manager for a mid-size corporation making something like 90-100k a year (in Texas, which is quite good money), while her brothers have been in and out of jail and barely sustain themselves.
It was kind of sad in a way because her family mostly shunned her. They think that she thinks she's better than them now & refuse to talk to her.
Even with that, because she did not have the middle class "training" that her peers had, she had some debt trouble because she was never "trained" about how to evaluate things like loans. But she makes enough money that she was able to Dave Ramsey her way out of it.
Very similar circumstances.
One could have predicted with probably 80%-90% "who was going where" by the freshman year of high schools. We had some privileged kids completely fall off the rails, and a few disadvantaged or ne'er-do-wells turn out fine, but those were exceptions.
My parents were working to middle class by income, but never developed good financial habits. They're 60 now. He had an older Corolla and had a short commute to work. He gets tired of the Corolla a couple of months ago and they come back with a new CRV. Mom is probably going to retire and take SS at 62. They took a five year loan out.
A lot of the type of thing rubbed off on me, and between my own financial errors and the bad economy after the recession, I kind of financially bumbled through my 20s.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
