Development and growth outside Center City (Philadelphia, Prospect Park: hotel, buyers, tenants)

[pman]

Originally Posted by rotodome

And I think if anything, the near northeast is in more danger of turning into a "new north philly". Germantown has always (at least for the past 50 years) been rougher on the east side (since that's basically Nicetown) and nicer on the west side (since that's basically Mt Airy), and I don't think that's changed much.

I dont think thats the explanation, both border mt airy and both border other neighborhoods... namely west germantown and tioga/nicetown and east germanttown and nicetown/logan. in fact, west mt airy is more desriable because it doesnt border east germantown. west germantown is larger houses near the park.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by pman

I dont think thats the explanation, both border mt airy and both border other neighborhoods... namely west germantown and tioga/nicetown and east germanttown and nicetown/logan. in fact, west mt airy is more desriable because it doesnt border east germantown. west germantown is larger houses near the park.

I wasn't really trying to explain the reasons per se. Mainly I was reacting to someone saying that Germantown was "the new North Philly". I was saying is that Germantown today is not very different from Germantown of decades ago. There's no big demographic shift in Germantown. There's of course a slow slide since the 70's as all of the major retailers left Germantown (Woolworth's, Sears, JC Penney, Allens, etc.. which is the same story as Center City and everyplace else, truthfully), and horrible debacles like Settlement, but the neighborhood has been relatively stable in the face of that. Decline has been slow.
Whereas the near Northeast has recently been changing more dramatically in the past decade. I'd be more concerned with that area.

The only "explanations" for the difference that I speculated on in my post were in Germantown having better rail infrastructure and better housing stock than much of the northeast. Yes, adjacency to the Wisssahickon helps too, which is a much nicer park than Pennypack (imo). And I've always thought that those vast swaths of cheap postwar housing were a big problem in the Northeast. It was odd-looking when it was new, and it's aging poorly. And people aren't going to have a lot of interest in buying them and fixing them up, like with historic houses.

[pman]

East Germantown is pretty bad, I think the "next north philly? comment missed the boat by a decade or two. It may get better but it's unlikely to get worse I think. The population has stopped shrinking so unles it resumes we may not see a resumption of the mass abandonment that occurred in north philly. northeast philly is changing but it's growing which separates it in at least some ways from what happened in north philly.

[rotodome]

That's true. There is no mass abandonment in NE Philly right now. I wasn't even thinking of that. Hopefully that ends up being a positive, and the current growth sticks, and that there's no repeat there of the white flight that basically created the Northeast in the first place.

East Germantown for all intents and purposes IS north philly - but nothing new about that.
I think the best hope for East Germantown is that Lasalle exerts some more positive influence to stabilize the worst part of the area. And then if the rumored improvements at Wayne Junction actually pan out, Germantown Ave has potential to redevelop as a nice commercial corridor. Maybe more artist types will get interested in the old loft spaces over there (if they don't all get demolished first, and if the Donna Reed Miller political machine is ever deposed). Maybe the 23 trolley comes back at some point. There's a string of national historic sites and schools along Germantown ave that hold it together. Germantown has good bones.

[pman]

Originally Posted by rotodome

That's true. There is no mass abandonment in NE Philly right now. I wasn't even thinking of that. Hopefully that ends up being a positive, and the current growth sticks, and that there's no repeat there of the white flight that basically created the Northeast in the first place.

East Germantown for all intents and purposes IS north philly - but nothing new about that.
I think the best hope for East Germantown is that Lasalle exerts some more positive influence to stabilize the worst part of the area. And then if the rumored improvements at Wayne Junction actually pan out, Germantown Ave has potential to redevelop as a nice commercial corridor. Maybe more artist types will get interested in the old loft spaces over there (if they don't all get demolished first, and if the Donna Reed Miller political machine is ever deposed). Maybe the 23 trolley comes back at some point. There's a string of national historic sites and schools along Germantown ave that hold it together. Germantown has good bones.

it's not that there isn't white flight but the whites that are leaving are being replaced at an even faster rate. when the whites left for the northeast, they were not wholly replaced by blacks or hispanics. and then there's the issue of redlining, etc. white people couldn't get mortgages to live there

[kidphilly]

Saw this post from Duderino and thought it might be good info for this thread too - nice link Dude!

//www.city-data.com/forum/18289035-post4.html


Also love the park being developed and the image supplied by Rainrock

//www.city-data.com/forum/18284439-post2.html

[kidphilly]

Also, although in CC; this area desperately needs some luster

What are thoughts on the markest East and potential

Philadelphia Market East, Philadelphia, PA | EE&K — Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects


and this too

http://www.philaplanning.org/plans/mkteast/mkteastexecsum.pdf (broken link)

[Wisertime]

Originally Posted by rotodome

. And I've always thought that those vast swaths of cheap postwar housing were a big problem in the Northeast. It was odd-looking when it was new, and it's aging poorly. And people aren't going to have a lot of interest in buying them and fixing them up, like with historic houses.

No kidding. Those homes are going to be a tough sell to younger generations. They are fugly. You can't really put lipstick on them to make them look nicer either.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Also, although in CC; this area desperately needs some luster

What are thoughts on the market East and potential

Philadelphia Market East, Philadelphia, PA | EE&K — Ehrenkrantz Eckstut & Kuhn Architects


and this too

http://www.philaplanning.org/plans/mkteast/mkteastexecsum.pdf (broken link)

While they are exciting, honestly, I don't put much stock in "vision" renderings that are made before there are budgets, developer clients, potential tenants, and political egoes in the mix.
The original market east concept renderings (which you can find in Ed Bacon's Design of Cities book from 1967), were very nice as well...and then look what happened to that. The Planning Commission's 1988 'Plan for Center City' renderings were also very inspiring.
Wait until Bureaucrats and developers get a hold of them.

Still, I am cautiously optimistic that at least some of the past mistakes won't be repeated. Market East is really a critical spot in Center City, now that so much has been poured in to that monstrous all-devouring convention center, and it's in bad shape.

[Pine to Vine]

Originally Posted by Wisertime

No kidding. Those homes are going to be a tough sell to younger generations. They are fugly. You can't really put lipstick on them to make them look nicer either.

Haven't been in that area, so i'm likely talking out my butt here (wouldn't be the first time either). Rather than thinking about attracting young buyers, could incentives be put into place to attract working class folks who can't otherwise get into a home? About 25 years ago, Wilmington was practically giving away improved property in a part of town resembling post-WWII Dresden. Buyers had to prove they were able to maintain the property. The city got several wins, including increasing its tax base. Would the NE housing stock be amenable to such a program, or is it simly prime for the bulldozer?

I like several of your ideas so far. PM me with your real names when you run for City Council - you'll get my vote.