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whoa. hold the train! Don't take what follows as a defense of SEPTA - I have my own critique but SEPTA inherited a rail system (and, more importantly, a transit system) that was literally falling apart. The private RRs had been deferring maintenance on their passenger operations since the 1950s. That's what SEPTA inherited.
From the early days SEPTA hired a bunch of engineers and bean counters in an effort to bring the system up to a good state of repair. Given the funding constraints, the condition of the system and the fact that the system had to be rebuilt while it was still in operation - ~30 years actually makes a bit of sense.
The problem begins with SEPTA hiring a bunch of engineers and bean counters to run a transit system because that old regime is still running the show. Now that the system is mostly rebuilt customers are still coming in a distant 2nd or 3rd place.
I'm a transit guy. I have a degree in it, i've worked in the biz, i purposely don't own a car. I'm gonna say that the rebuilding of RRs to West Chester, Quakertown, Newtown, and P-ville, paying for operations then paying for separate maintenance for a diesel fleet just wasn't worth the strain it would've put on the rest of the system for the riders that it would've drawn. This was the 80s we're talking about. Transit ridership all over the country was falling precipitously.
SEPTA made a lot of mistakes in terms of investments. Rebuilding the el in place, as-is, turned out to be a huge mistake. Waiting so long to move towards a modern fare system and then moving towards POP on most routes has cost them million$ per year in ridership/revenue, wages paid to redundant employees as well as the cost of operating extra vehicles just to keep the same headways (because paying on board slows down the whole system). Buying a few thousand new diesel buses (and being a slave to oil prices) will probably prove to be a huge mistake. They should've take their 80% of busiest RR stations and built high level platforms. The dwell times system-wide are unnecessarily long to the point that it adds at least one train per day to each schedule (running a RR train costs a lot of money).
Rebuilding the outlying RR stations before they rebuilt the stations that everyone uses cost riders.
Not lobbying the city and suburban counties to push TOD around RR and more dense redevelopment around subway and light rail was a mistake that has cost a lot of riders over the years.
If you're a transit org. like SEPTA or WMATA or MBTA you have to run a certain number of trains and buses everyday. At certain times of day those vehicles are really crowded but most of the day there are plenty of seats. Filling your empty seats is the quickest, easiest way to slow the bleed (every transit vehicle that leaves the yard is losing money). You do that by offering off-peak discounts and useful destinations. SEPTA continues to market itself to the monthly pass buying, 9-5 set when JTW only accounts for 25% of all travel.
When NYC MTA introduced the Metrocard ridership exploded (~40% in 3 years) and almost all of the growth was off-peak . . .
That's enough for now. I'll save the rest for later.
You are right, and I am not a rail expert. I'm aware that the PRR, the RDG, and whoever else had systems that were physically falling apart. I know that the management of Conrail and its predecessors seemed to know very little about the day-to-day operations of a train system. My point was that their systems were huge - there was much better coverage into much further out places (Reading, Allentown, etc.).
So, considering your knowledge and expertise, what are your thoughts on the eventual restoration? Will it happen? How difficult or easy is it considering the rail lines themselves are already physically there?
You are right, and I am not a rail expert. I'm aware that the PRR, the RDG, and whoever else had systems that were physically falling apart. I know that the management of Conrail and its predecessors seemed to know very little about the day-to-day operations of a train system. My point was that their systems were huge - there was much better coverage into much further out places (Reading, Allentown, etc.).
So, considering your knowledge and expertise, what are your thoughts on the eventual restoration? Will it happen? How difficult or easy is it considering the rail lines themselves are already physically there?
You're right, there was much better coverage on the whole system in terms of where you could go. I would argue that even though the system is somewhat smaller in reach, you're able to get to more of those places, more often.
The whole point of the commuter tunnel was to have the RR set up like a German S-bahn. This is also the system used in most Australian cities as none of them have subways of any sort. If you want to get around the city in a manner quicker than a trolley you board the RR much like you would at a subway station. You buy a ticket and pass through a turnstile. Once you're outside of the downtown zone your ticket serves as proof-of-payment (meaning, get off at the zone printed on your ticket or pay $300 if you get caught).
SEPTA is set up in terms of scheduling, signaling, etc to be able to run trains all day long at 30 minute or even 15 minute headways. Of course, they can't afford to do it now because they'd be paying so many conductors to collect tickets and raise and lower stairs. If the whole system were POP and had high-level platforms you could keep on conductors as roving fare enforcers and let retirement thin their ranks and you'd reduce the number of SEPTA employees on the trains by 50%. Most routes don't actually need 30 minute headways because, while it would be nice, there just aren't enough riders to justify it. The one exception is the R5 (both ends) and that's because most of those stations are in relatively dense towns with a good deal of commercial activity. If/when those other lines become more like the R5 they will probably need more frequent service.
Now, in terms of the more far flung places - SEPTA's current system extends about 20-40 miles from the core and that's generally the limit of where you'll find people with a strong enough connection to the city to make the trip often enough to produce the ridership necessary to justify the expense of running the train in the first place.
As an example, look at the Elwyn stop. The parking lot is packed. SEPTA did a license plate survey
and found that a lot of people were coming from further west. That means that extending the line is probably going to bring in more riders than just expanding the parking lot.
The trains up to Lansdale are busy and parking lots are crowded but as the line veers off towards Doylestown ridership dwindles. I don't know the answer here but it could be because of the less frequent headways, it could be because of the distance or, it could be because a lot of people are driving down the Northeast Extension and are getting on the train in Lansdale and Ft. Washington. The latter (and I'm pretty sure that's the answer) would suggest it's time to start pushing the train up towards Quakertown.
The problem you run into is making it happen quickly and cheaply because SEPTAs RR operations at this point are all electric and getting trains through the tunnel require electric or dual mode vehicles (SEPTA has none of the latter). Personally, I think SEPTA should just run straight diesel (buy something NJTransit is selling) from West Chester through to University City and terminate at the lower level of 30th St. In fact, Likewise, trains from Pottstown/Reading and Quakertown/Allentown can run through to at least Temple where riders can do an easy cross-platform transfer to go the rest of the way into CC.
NJTransit does this on a few lines already. For instance, I used to commute from Asbury Park to Lower Manhattan. The train is diesel and makes all local stops to Red Bank. Then it runs express to Newark where you can transfer to the PATH or an electric train to Penn Station. The diesel trains terminate in Hoboken. Off-peak the diesel trains terminate in Long Branch where there is a cross-platform transfer to an electric train that goes to Penn Station. There's no reason you can't have a similar set up here.
One of DVARP's big critiques of SEPTA is that they're a transit company that has no idea how to run a railroad. IMO, DVARP is more interested in rail nostalgia than they are about efficient and effective transit. I think the RR should absolutely be run on a transit model.
Thanks for the explanations. It would be nice if they could electrify piecemeal on the R6, such as out to Phoenixville, now (or within the next few years). An incremental method such as this was suggested for the SVM because the towns along the route would rather have seen piecemeal over 20 years than to wait 20 years for the whole thing. Actually, such a method might provide a gauge as to how successful future expansion would be.
Thanks for the explanations. It would be nice if they could electrify piecemeal on the R6, such as out to Phoenixville, now (or within the next few years). An incremental method such as this was suggested for the SVM because the towns along the route would rather have seen piecemeal over 20 years than to wait 20 years for the whole thing. Actually, such a method might provide a gauge as to how successful future expansion would be.
Transit orgs depend on federal money for capital programs and the criteria for funding (the formula can be found here http://www.fta.dot.gov/documents/FY1...Process(2).pdf)
is tough but harder still because each project is competing on the federal level for funding with all of these projects - http://www.fta.dot.gov/12305_12439.html - note that PA and NJ are completely absent from the list.
Adding to the cost of the project by building new substations and stretching out the catenary to Phoenixville would probably bump it down in the ratings. The funding formula is (really simplistically) basically the cost divided by the number of riders. If you can cut costs without losing too many riders your project goes up in the rankings.
IMO, it's probably best to get the trains running as cheaply as possible. I think SEPTA could probably get to Phoenixville just by using flex funds and maybe shuffling some money around in their capital programs. Phoenixville isn't that far from Norristown and the major expenses would be the signaling and train control systems and building/rebuilding the stations. Show the demand for the service then add trains to the schedule, show building ridership, then go to the FTA to expand the route out to Pottstown/Reading.
I have little doubt that the route will pull in a lot of commuters but the density of those riders along the route will probably dictate the cost-effectiveness of electrifying it.
That would have been very expensive and wouldn't really change a thing....
It probably would have raised land values along the route... but you're right, it was prohibitively expensive.
As far as extending RR service... why hasn't SEPTA looked into diesel/electric dual-mode locomotives? Most of the problems in implementing any system expansion stems from SEPTA's desire to electrify the route in question. This is also practical, since its the only way to get a one-seat ride downtown as the CCCT doesn't allow diesels. The dual modes basically solve all those problems: they allow trains to go past the electrified portions of the system and still access Center City. NJT and Metro North both use them to great effect. I don't see why SEPTA can't purchase some. It would defray the costs of expansion by eliminating the need for costly electrification, which is something like 75%-90% of the cost. Maybe less considering the purchase of the new locos, since SEPTA couldn't just run Silverliners over the new route, but would still take a huge chunk off the cost regardless.
It probably would have raised land values along the route... but you're right, it was prohibitively expensive.
The West Philly portion was almost 100% over budget - The final tally was around $800 million for 2 miles. I'd be really surprised if tunneling or cut & cover cost more than that.
Even it was 10 or 20% more than that the benefits would've been well worth it.
As far as extending RR service... why hasn't SEPTA looked into diesel/electric dual-mode locomotives? Most of the problems in implementing any system expansion stems from SEPTA's desire to electrify the route in question. This is also practical, since its the only way to get a one-seat ride downtown as the CCCT doesn't allow diesels. The dual modes basically solve all those problems: they allow trains to go past the electrified portions of the system and still access Center City. NJT and Metro North both use them to great effect. I don't see why SEPTA can't purchase some. It would defray the costs of expansion by eliminating the need for costly electrification, which is something like 75%-90% of the cost. Maybe less considering the purchase of the new locos, since SEPTA couldn't just run Silverliners over the new route, but would still take a huge chunk off the cost regardless.
It really does make you wonder, doesn't it? It's as if SEPTA is accountable to no one. Their board is made up of representatives of the city and the suburban counties but they never seem that interested in helping the communities in which they are supposedly serving. I think the cost of restoring service to Reading via dual-mode locomotives is something like 15% of the cost of the $2.1 billion boondoggle SVM proposal that the Federal government wisely denied 10 years ago. It's truly sad - we can't get out of our own way in this region.
It really does make you wonder, doesn't it? It's as if SEPTA is accountable to no one. Their board is made up of representatives of the city and the suburban counties but they never seem that interested in helping the communities in which they are supposedly serving. I think the cost of restoring service to Reading via dual-mode locomotives is something like 15% of the cost of the $2.1 billion boondoggle SVM proposal that the Federal government wisely denied 10 years ago. It's truly sad - we can't get out of our own way in this region.
SVM wasn't a boondoggle because, thankfully, it never got built.
The dual mode locomotives of the type that SEPTA would need weren't exactly off-the-shelf technology. The first of their kind just entered revenue service for NJTransit 4 months ago. Let's see how they work, get the bugs out, etc, before SEPTA jumps on the bandwagon.
I'm all for it but in this case it's prudent to let other transit agencies take the risk with a new product. If/when SEPTA orders a few of these it's not exactly as if it's just a matter of printing up some schedules. Land for stations and park&rides have to be aqcuired, stations built/made ADA compliant, and an expensive signal system has to be installed for the length of the route.
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