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North or Mid-Atlantic – pick one. The climate best matches New York. If NYC is North: so is Philadelphia.
There’s a lot of discussion about World Class Cities. Recently I saw a young woman walk out of a clothing store to the curb. She raised her hand and a Taxi pulled over immediately. I had an out-of-towner ask where he could catch a cab: I said “stand on the corner and raise your hand”. A taxi pulled in front of him. My definition of a World Class City is simple: stand on a corner in the Downtown and put your hand up. If you’re not in a taxi in 1 minute, you’re not in a World Class City. In Downtown Philadelphia you’re on your way in that minute.
Philadelphia is the 4th largest media market in the US. Forget the census: eyeballs count! I’ll explain the reason later. It is in the center or the largest concentration of people on Earth. Being between New York (financial capital of the world) and DC (biggest government); it’s often forgotten. However you also can’t compare it with the NYC or DC. It is big but its economy is different. The economy is based on Meds/Eds/Pharma, Finance and Tech. It has over 100 degree granting colleges and universities. It’s just the biggest college town anywhere. Therefore it looks different and its economy acts differently.
Now let’s get the population thing settled. The City of Philadelphia lost about 400,000 people between 1970 and 1990. It lost another 100,000 in the following decade. However despite Census Bureau estimates during the last decade that it would lose another 100,000; it gained population. I must say that in 2009 the Census Bureau saw this coming and added 93,000 to Philadelphia and it went back ahead of Phoenix. The population is still growing; especially in the Center City and adjacent University City. The entire Downtown is not just growing; it’s exploding up and outward. Since it’s difficult to set boundaries around City Centers; it’s also difficult to calculate actual populations. However the demographics make the footprint of the extended Downtown about 7 sq. miles. Thus it can be argued that the population of Downtown Philadelphia is approaching or has passed Downtown Chicago. There are several demographics at work: young Urban Professionals (think 7 bucks a beer), students (they don’t count, they still live in Poughkeepsie) , baby-boomers from the suburbs and (this may be difficult for New Yorkers) New Yorkers. If one doesn’t believe this, you haven’t been around the City in the last 5 years. While this is going on in the Downtown, most of the rest of the City has basically stabilized. Therefore the City of Philadelphia is projected to gain about 150,000 residents between 2010 and 2020.
Now for that myth about white flight! The City lost all those people because by 1970 it had grown out to its fixed boundaries (130 sq. miles). It couldn’t annex it suburbs. It was locked in and built out. When family sizes dropped drastically, the City was destined to lose significant population. This loss closely follows the drop in family size. Although a portion of the white population moved out of the City; African American, Hispanic and Oriental people filled the gap. However their family sizes were also declining. When family sizes stabilized at slightly more than 2 people per household; the losses stopped.
Every city is at the mercy of its professional sports team and has built new and very expensive venues to these gods. Philadelphia is no exception. However the population wouldn’t allow them to be built near the Downtown. The same with casinos. However the City has also been on a building spree of another kind. The Kimmel Center, at $270M is a 3 venue performing arts facility; an $800M expansion of the PA Convention Center. The City did like the idea of the Convention Center in the Downtown and it’s in the very center. While the $240M Barnes Foundation Museum (let’s say 181 Renoirs, 57 Cezannes, etc, etc.) just opened this year; the Constitution Center ($150M) and the Philadelphia Museum of Art is in the midst of a $500M expansion. The City is also in the process of building completely new Parks and rebuilding existing park and plazas. It must be all the additional tax money their taking in.
Now let’s look at Census Data for the region. This is where the Census Bureau credibility becomes tenuous. Metropolitan cities in the U.S. South and West just keep expanding into vacant land. It also has been stated by others that the Philadelphia Metro is very small geographically in comparison to most other cities. That’s true. This is because it’s surrounded by satellite cities that are not included in the Metro. Cities like Lancaster, Reading and Allentown ring the existing Metro and the Philadelphia suburbs that abut those cities provide jobs. All of Southern NJ is dependent on the City. But only 3 abutting counties are in the Metro. Even if people from Philadelphia don’t live in Cape May: they own it along with all the other beach towns in Southern NJ. Then somehow the Census people decided to add a county in Maryland into Philadelphia. So now Philadelphia extends to the Susquehanna River. Cecil County is only 35 miles from Baltimore and further away from Philadelphia than the other cities surrounding Philadelphia. Even without Maryland, the Philadelphia Metro is about 7.5 to 8 million. The eyeballs have it. Thus Philadelphia is the 4 largest media market.
To conclude: People who visit the City often ask does anyone have a kitchen. On one side of one block I counted 12 eating establishments. Since Old Christ Church was on the other side; it only had 6 more. Uncommon but not unusual.[/SIZE]
Fran McKibbin
Last edited by francis mckibbin; 12-07-2012 at 12:39 AM..
Reason: editing notes size etc
Hey,
I was pretty interested in the topic of Philadelphia and the greater metropolitan region. If you are from or know much about the area, please share your insights to any of my questions. Thanks.
I specifically was interested in knowing
1) Is Philadelphia considered a Northern, Mid Atlantic, both, or neither city?
-I always considered Philadelphia to be a northern city like New York as opposed to Baltimore and DC.
-My reason for this is that Philadelphia is in Pennsylvania which was and is considered a northern state, and borders New Jersey within the metro area, and extending to Delaware, another northern state I thought.
-Further Philly's economy seemed very much to be one historically based on shipping and industry as opposed to agriculture, as in the south.
-The accents of the residents seemed somewhat close to New York, a northern accent, as opposed to Baltimore which is a bastardized southern accent.
-Not to mention Philadelphia has a very big sports identity, which again is more like a northern city than the more apathetic mid Atlantic and south.
-All of these factors lead me to believe Philadelphia is a northern city.
2) However, I am a bit confused.
-Unlike, say Boston which is undoubtedly northern and in New England, geographic books tend to vary when classifying Pennsylvania, New Jersey, and Delaware.
-Some classify PA and NJ as northern or mid Atlantic.
-Same goes for DE, which also gets classified at times as southern.
-Further, while Philadelphia is only 90 miles to New York, it is barely 100 miles to Baltimore and 140 to Washington, both Mid Atlantic towns.
-This makes classifying it even harder.
-If one were to classify Philadelphia as northern, how is it that its geographical region evolves within 100 miles of Baltimore, the heart of the mid Atlantic?
-Similarly if one were to classify Philadelphia as Mid Atlantic, how is it the geography region evolves within 100 miles of New York, a clear northern city?
-I feel Philadelphia is Northern again due to the states its sphere influence engulfs, its ethnic demographics, accents, history, economy, and culture.
-If it were say 200 miles from Baltimore it would be a slam dunk.
-The fact it is so near the Mid Atlantic is what makes it confusing.
-Can someone explain?
-Am I right?
3) Metro Region
-What exactly encompasses the Philadelphia metro region?
-Is the Philadelphia region much like New York in that it is part of a tri state region?
4) Pennsylvania
-What counties, cities, how deep and far north and east into Pennsylvania does the Philadelphia region, influence, and commuters go?
-One thing I noticed, I once took the PA Turnpike extension from the NJTP to the first exit, and the south into Philly.
-Having lived in the New York tri state region, and now the DC region, I was surprised to see how rural looking the Levittown region of Pennsylvania. To me it looked as if it was the sticks, not a satellite suburb of a very old and large, influential metro region.
-In DC this used to not be uncommon, since most of the growth is new. In Philadelphia though, I thought it would be more like New York with a large commuting radius and sphere of influence given its huge and old urban population.
-That region is very close to the edge of the city limits and looked like it does maybe 50 miles from DC. Was this just a false illusion and if not how do you explain?
5) New Jersey
-Similarly, I ask the same question for New Jersey.
-What counties, cities, how deep and far north, south, and east does the Philadelphia region, influence, and commuters go?
-Is it only South Jersey or also Central and Northwest Jersey?
-Where in New Jersey does it go from being part of the New York region to more Philadelphia based?
-Is there a specific line of demarcation, or river, where it suddenly shifts, a county line or is it more gradual, and if so, where?
6) New Jersey II
-Again I have been surprised to notice driving down the NJTP how rural SJ appears in contrast to North Jersey. In fact, when I was young, I was shocked to learn that Philadelphia bordered South Jersey because on the NJTP one gets the feeling you are out, again, in the sticks.
-Whereas in the New York region it is heavily built up and developed all along throughways like I-95 and the GSPkway in North Jersey, once you cross the Delaware Memorial Bridge into Salem County you would never guess you are so close to Philadelphia.
-Looking at a map I was stunned to see the NJTP runs within maybe 12 miles or so parallel to Philadelphia. This area of the NJTP has a lot of trees which easily mask any low density development. Contrast this to North Jersey where the road is 5 lanes or more with factories, high rises, all over. Again is it my illusion or is there an explanation for the contrast?
-I really have a hard time comprehending this because I always felt Philadelphia was a major metro region, yet the fact it's landscape is so undistinguished within 15 or so miles of center center seems contradictory.
7) Salem County
-Again I am shocked at how rural this county looks from the NJTP given its proximity to Philadelphia?
-I don’t get how you cross the Delaware Memorial Bridge, where it is built up, and you can see both Wilmington and Philadelphia, yet it looks rural?
-Someone familiar with this county, can you describe it?
-Is it rural or part of the Philadelphia metro region?
-Would you describe it as northern or southern/mid Atlantic?
-What are the residents like, do they have southern accents and, no offense, hickish?
8) Delaware
-Similarly, I ask the same question for Delaware.
-What counties, cities, how deep and far north, south, and east does the Philadelphia region, influence, and commuters go?
-As I have driven on I-95 it seems Delaware, New Castle County, is very built up and part of the Philadelphia region. Until you pass Christiania to Newark and it gets rural looking.
-Is this the case?
-Why does the sphere of influence or commuting zone appear to abruptly end even though it is still near Philadelphia?
-Is this really commuter range for Philadelphia or mostly Wilmington?
-What about Kent County, including Dover? Is this part of the Philadelphia and commuting region? I am confused because while it appears closer to Philadelphia I have heard they get Baltimore stations too.
-What about Sussex County?
-Overall would you consider Delaware to be a Northern/Southern/Mid Atlantic or mix state?
-I find this hard to classify because if part of the Philadelphia area, I would consider it northern.
-I have heard northern New Castle residents have a northern accent.
-I also though have heard southern Delaware is Baltimore and DC based and has southern accents, which makes it hard to classify. Is it possible the state is both?
-If so, where does the shift begin?
9) Maryland
-I'd also like to ask, is northern Maryland, Cecil County, part of the Philadelphia region, making it a quad state region.
-I don't understand why whenever I drive south on I-95 after Christiania, Delaware becomes rural all the way into Cecil County.
-Philadelphia is a city of close to one million and regarded as large market. People in the New York region commute within a 60 or more mile radius.
-This is not uncommon in DC as well.
-I would assume for a big market like Philadelphia it would be well built up and with commuters within at least a 45 mile radius for something as old as that town.
-I don't understand than why around Christiania, less than 40 miles from Philadelphia into northern Maryland, it seems to be well outside the commuting range?
-Is it, and do you have an explanation?
10) Baltimore to Philadelphia Shift
-Is there a location where it shifts from being Philadelphia based to more Baltimore, and if so, where in Delaware, Maryland, and Pennsylvania?
11) Relative to the rest of Pennsylvania, what is Philadelphia's relationship?
-While undoubtedly the largest market, is Philadelphia the flagship icon for the state as say Boston would be in Massachusetts or is Philadelphia, while a big market, an anomaly relative to the rest of the state?
-Is it seen as simply being representative of southeast Pennsylvania, but those outside this region choosing to identify more with the culture of Pittsburgh if not holding a grudge against Philadelphia?
-If so why, and where does this begin?
12) How would you identify the mainstream residents of the Philadelphia region?
-Having again lived in the New York region, outside of the mass immigration I would say the region is both blue and white collar northern.
-Having lived in the DC region I can say this white collar and mid-Atlantic with many transplants and hicks.
-What about the Philadelphia region? Is this largely characterized by white, blue collar, or both? How about it being northern/mid Atlantic?
-Does the region have a lot of hicks, or is this outside the region, and where does that begin?
-I heard that Pennsylvania is very hickish once you leave the Philadelphia region.
13) New York commuters
-Are there a lot of New York commuters in this region?
-I believe I read there are a surprising number of NY commuters in this area, which I find shocking.
-First while the two cities are close, still it is 90 miles away. Yes Acela is fast, but it does not run regularly like a metro line and is quite expensive.
-Further Philadelphia is not some satellite city, it is a major, old big market, I would find it shocking that it would be a satellite city since it has its own identity.
-If this were the case, is it really commuter or just transplants?
-Further if someone lives in the Philly region but commutes to the New York region, which region do they identify with? Would they more likely be a Philadelphia or New York sports fan?
-I would expect if this were the case that Philadelphia would not have much of a big pride identity and many more New York fans at their sports evens which is not the case making me question this.
-Also, is this the entire Philly region, or if this phenomena does exist, is it more in Central NJ, which is ground zero between the two mega cities?
14) Which cities do you consider to be your biggest rival or have the most animosity towards?
- Is it New York due to size and proximity?
-Pittsburgh since it's instate?
-Washington or Baltimore given proximity?
-How would you rank, and is there a strong anti-New York sentiment across the region or is this more in South Jersey and due to opposition of North Jersey dominance?
15) Lastly I'd like to know, is Philadelphia or the region a big hockey area?
-It seems in Philadelphia the Eagles are number, but oddly for a US City with 4 major teams, the Flyers number two.
-I base this on the fact the Flyers always appear to sell out, and have a large road fan base presence.
-Those I know from Philadelphia I most often see them in Eagles then Flyers then Phillies then 76ers gear.
-Is this again an illusion?
-Are the Flyers are legit number two or is it just their fans are more loyal and visible?
-I don't understand why given Philadelphia has a big African American population which traditionally steers towards the NBA not the NHL.
-Where do most of the hockey fans come from?
-The city or suburbs, and which, PA/NJ/DE?
-Relative to New York and Pittsburgh, is Philadelphia a bigger hockey town, or is it like those two with it being big however way behind other sports, like the Steelers or Yankees/Giants?
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The Philadelphia Accent is actually quite similar to the Baltimore Accent and unlike New York's, especially since Philadelphia retains rhoticity.
Officially the Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD is broken up in three divisions
1)Camden, NJ Metropolitan Division
2)Philadelphia, PA Metropolitan Division
3)Wilmington, DE-MD-NJ Metropolitan Division
Each Division consists of the following counties
1) Camden, NJ Metropolitan Division
Burlington Country, NJ
Camden County, NJ
Gloucester County, NJ
2) Philadelphia, PA Metropolitan Division
Bucks County, PA
Chester County, PA
Delaware County, PA
Montgomery County, PA
Philadelphia County, PA
3) Wilmington, DE-MD-NJ
New Castle County,DE
Cecil County, MD
Salem County, NJ
The Combined Statistical Area includes all the above plus
4) Reading, PA MSA (Berk's County PA)
5) Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton, NJ MSA (Cumberland County NJ)
Official designation of regions should be used whenever possible. If you ask for people's opinions, you will always get personal answers based on that individual's feelings. I find opinions to be boring and useless. Even if you don't agree with them in your head; you should use the offical designations. Officially Middle Atlantic is 3 states, NY, NJ, and PA. New England is 6 states (ME, NH,VT, MA, CT, and RI ), Northeast is New England plus Middle Atlantic.
Last edited by PacoMartin; 12-09-2012 at 05:06 PM..
Funny that Salem County is part of the Philly MSA not due to its connection to Philadelphia or even Gloucester County, but because of its connection to Wilmington.
Officially the Philadelphia-Camden-Wilmington, PA-NJ-DE-MD Metropolitan Statistical Area is broken up in three divisions
1)Camden, NJ Metropolitan Division
2)Philadelphia, PA Metropolitan Division
3)Wilmington, DE-MD-NJ Metropolitan Division
[...details snipped...]
The Combined Statistical Area includes all the above plus
4) Reading, PA MSA (Berk's County PA)
5) Vineland-Millville-Bridgeton, NJ MSA (Cumberland County NJ)
Official designation of regions should be used whenever possible. If you ask for people's opinions, you will always get personal answers based on that individual's feelings. I find opinions to be boring and useless. Even if you don't agree with them in your head; you should use the offical designations. Officially Middle Atlantic is 3 states, NY, NJ, and PA. New England is 6 states (ME, NH,VT, MA, CT, and RI ), Northeast is New England plus Middle Atlantic.
Um, aren't Delaware and Maryland also part of the Middle Atlantic region? Though Maryland lies below the Mason-Dixon Line and both states had legal slavery, I don't think either are classified as part of the Southeast, even if both states have some vestigial remnants of Southern ways about them.
Um, aren't Delaware and Maryland also part of the Middle Atlantic region? Though Maryland lies below the Mason-Dixon Line and both states had legal slavery, I don't think either are classified as part of the Southeast, even if both states have some vestigial remnants of Southern ways about them.
According to the Census Bureau, DE and MD are still part of the South, specifically the South Atlantic. It's ironic because most people I know in MD and the greater DMV region consider themselves to be the Midatlantic region and don't consider NJ, PA, or NY to be included.
According to the Census Bureau, DE and MD are still part of the South, specifically the South Atlantic. It's ironic because most people I know in MD and the greater DMV region consider themselves to be the Midatlantic region and don't consider NJ, PA, or NY to be included.
Gonna go off on a tangent here:
I tend to bristle when people hereabouts place my native state in the South. (I'm a Missourian by birth and upbringing, a Kansas City native. Another common and understandable bit of confusion: My telling people where I'm from and being asked what it was like to grow up in Kansas. That's the state next door, and the city of the same name in it is the newer and smaller of the two. The two form a single metropolitan area, the second-largest (after St. Louis) in the Central Plains states.)
Yes, Missouri was a slave state. And much of the state's more southerly regions have more than a little Deep Southern character about them. But Kansas Citians definitely, and I'd say most Missourians too if you asked them, consider themselves Midwesterners, and I believe the Census Bureau places the state in the West North Central region.
Back to this topic: To add to the confusion, the AAA affiliate that serves this region, the former Keystone Automobile Club, is now called AAA Mid-Atlantic. The one serving Baltimore and Washington is AAA Potomac.
Edited to add: I suspect that the South Atlantic and Southeast regions are distinct and different - and that Virginia is in the latter.
I95 is not rural anywhere in DE. Either there are houses behind the trees, or it's on a marsh upon which you cannot develop.
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