The Future of Norristown (Philadelphia, York: loft, condo, neighborhood)

[FKD19124]

Yeah thats right. But I thought she lived
In spring garden

[Pennsport]

Originally Posted by Muinteoir

Yeah, I think the area has a lot of potential. Being sandwiched between Conshohocken (the thirty-something semi-urban oasis) and KoP, with commuter rail to boot, is fantastic.


A lot of Norristown is actually pretty nice. It is just a matter of revitalizing the "downtown" area.

Maybe. I still think there are quite a few barriers. Large population, decades of decline in the key areas of downtown. All of this will take quite a while, and more importantly, a lot of money, to get back on track.

Most impactful however, from what I've seen, is that people who chose to live in that general area don't seem to desire living in marginalized or actively gentrifying areas. Most people who work at the growing KOP business sector make very nice salaries and seem to value true suburbia with parking, new construction (maybe on a golf course), safety, strong schools and grit-free lifestyle. They have literally dozens of suburbs (many of which are expanding daily) that offer all they are looking for. I personally don't think there will be much interest in living in a rougher, urban environment with crime levels much higher than other surrounding towns, few amenities and poor schools, just to help be drivers of revitalization. Now this isn't to say it won't happen on a slower time-frame in a more organic manner, I just don't think the KOP overflow will benefit Norristown much.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

She grew up on the Main Line, and I don't recall her saying she lived in CC - I think she lives in a nearby outlying neighborhood.

We've met in the flesh - when I also worked at Penn, where she still works.

I no longer work at Penn. I retired in Jan., 2012.

Correct. Never lived in CC.

The first 4.5 years of my life was spent in W. Phila. two block away from Carroll Park. The next 20 years was spent in
Haverford ( with 2 of those in West Chester while I was studying at what is now WCU). Next 20 years I lived in Upper Darby only so I could save wrt the wage tax. Once I could afford the extra tax bite and I could buy my own place I got the heck out of UD and have been in the city ever since, in Spring Garden.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by FKD19124

She is from center city philadelphia. Used to debate her on topics for years starting back on usenet phl.media

And I have no idea who you are. That board was an age ago and feels like ancient history.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by kyb01

I no longer work at Penn. I retired in Jan., 2012.

Correct. Never lived in CC.

The first 4.5 years of my life was spent in W. Phila. two block away from Carroll Park. The next 20 years was spent in
Haverford ( with 2 of those in West Chester while I was studying at what is now WCU). Next 20 years I lived in Upper Darby only so I could save wrt the wage tax. Once I could afford the extra tax bite and I could buy my own place I got the heck out of UD and have been in the city ever since, in Spring Garden.

(emphasis added)

Ah, here's what happened: You didn't move to Center City, "Center City" moved to you.

Spring Garden is one of the neighborhoods the Center City District now refers to as "extended" Center City - those neighborhoods to the north and south of Center City that have benefited from spillover development. The CCD refers to the whole of the territory as "Greater Center City."

It extends from Girard Avenue on the north to Tasker Street on the south.

[FKD19124]

it is ancient history. I used to be in there with you and Art clemons. you used to be on the philly speaks too.

Originally Posted by kyb01

And I have no idea who you are. That board was an age ago and feels like ancient history.

[Muinteoir]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

(emphasis added)

Ah, here's what happened: You didn't move to Center City, "Center City" moved to you.

Spring Garden is one of the neighborhoods the Center City District now refers to as "extended" Center City - those neighborhoods to the north and south of Center City that have benefited from spillover development. The CCD refers to the whole of the territory as "Greater Center City."

It extends from Girard Avenue on the north to Tasker Street on the south.

To consider everything up to Girard "Greater Center City" is truly wild. To extend the Center City southern boundary to Christian Street, or maybe even Washington Avenue would make sense to me, since the neighborhoods run so seamlessly into one another. It never made sense to me that South Street wasn't really included in Center City. However, I think the Center City Proper northern boundary definition actually still makes sense, considering how separated most of the 'hoods to the north feel from CC.

[Fireshaker]

Originally Posted by Pennsport

Most people who work at the growing KOP business sector make very nice salaries and seem to value true suburbia with parking, new construction (maybe on a golf course), safety, strong schools and grit-free lifestyle. They have literally dozens of suburbs (many of which are expanding daily) that offer all they are looking for. I personally don't think there will be much interest in living in a rougher, urban environment with crime levels much higher than other surrounding towns, few amenities and poor schools, just to help be drivers of revitalization. Now this isn't to say it won't happen on a slower time-frame in a more organic manner, I just don't think the KOP overflow will benefit Norristown much.

Emphasis mine.

You are probably right in many cases, but don't discount the pendulum swinging back toward more urbanist principles, even in the suburbs. The Town Center at KOP is an honest attempt to create something dense and walkable, even if it is surrounded by a sea of parking and highways. Yes, it's artificial and free of "grit", but the desire for something like that is clearly there (and growing).

Given its proximity, why couldn't Norristown be primed to take advantage of that? There are a LOT of companies in that vicinity, and a lot of younger workers who reverse commute there from the city. (I used to be one of them, living in P'unk Square and working in Malvern). I certainly hated that drive, and I could very well have been tempted by a closer community that was still walkable, diverse, and vibrant. Many more probably feel the same.

[Pennsport]

Originally Posted by Muinteoir

To consider everything up to Girard "Greater Center City" is truly wild. To extend the Center City southern boundary to Christian Street, or maybe even Washington Avenue would make sense to me, since the neighborhoods run so seamlessly into one another. It never made sense to me that South Street wasn't really included in Center City. However, I think the Center City Proper northern boundary definition actually still makes sense, considering how separated most of the 'hoods to the north feel from CC.

See I disagree. I think Girard and Tasker are very appropriate boundaries at this point in time. I see CC as being defined as "an area consisting of neighborhoods within geographic boundaries that are frequented interchangeably." The restaurants on Fairmount Ave. west of Broad, the venues in NL up to Girard and those in Passyunk Square, Grad Hospital/Point Breeze sections as well as QV and Pennsport, are all being patronized by many of the same people who 10 years ago would never have gone north of Vine and south of South. And, the same people are actually deciding to live in these neighborhoods at housing prices that reflect a "greater CC."

[Muinteoir]

Originally Posted by Pennsport

See I disagree. I think Girard and Tasker are very appropriate boundaries at this point in time. I see CC as being defined as "an area consisting of neighborhoods within geographic boundaries that are frequented interchangeably." The restaurants on Fairmount Ave. west of Broad, the venues in NL up to Girard and those in Passyunk Square, Grad Hospital/Point Breeze sections as well as QV and Pennsport, are all being patronized by many of the same people who 10 years ago would never have gone north of Vine and south of South. And, the same people are actually deciding to live in these neighborhoods at housing prices that reflect a "greater CC."

That sounds like gentrification with Center City as the node from which revitalization stretches. Williamsburg did not get “Greater Manhattan” status when it gentrified. It is true that there are quite a few contending definitions of what constitutes Center City, the strictest of which is “Pine to Vine” (of which a lovely fellow poster is a namesake). I have seen a definition of CC with the northern boundary as Spring Garden. I had not seen a definition of Center City that extends to Girard until the CCD claim.

Pushing the Center City boundary farther south makes more sense than north. Vine St makes a strong border, as it is right along 676 / Vine St Expressway. When one crosses through this area, it is acutely apparent that one has left Center City and entered a new section of town. This stark cut-off does not happen to the south.