The Future of Norristown (Philadelphia, Reading: apartments, rent, condos)

[TownDweller]

Originally Posted by ohiogirl81

i love how a discussion about norristown has de-evolved into an argument over philadelphia neighborhood boundaries.

Not.

+1

[Ohiogirl81]

Originally Posted by Muinteoir

Have you not noticed the tendency for threads to change topics after a few pages on this forum, especially considering your seniority here? I’m not sure why you singled out this thread. I thought it was an interesting discussion with a surprising amount of civility.

P.S. I asked some of my friends (who are not on C-D) for their thoughts on the idea of a “Greater Center City” that extends to Girard. It definitely seems like a popular idea here on City-Data. They too thought it was a wild idea considering how different those North Philly ‘hoods feel. Perhaps the idea will gain some traction in the coming decades, though. I suppose I wouldn’t mind extending the boundaries of our official downtown so we can beat Chicago’s downtown residential population once and for all.

Unless the discussion drifts toward including Norristown in "Greater Center City", then the discussion in this thread is moot and off-topic. Why have separate threads with separate titles at all? We could just have one big thread ...

[Muinteoir]

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Unless the discussion drifts toward including Norristown in "Greater Center City", then the discussion in this thread is moot and off-topic. Why have separate threads with separate titles at all? We could just have one big thread ...

Ok honey! You didn’t address how frequently this happens and why you chose this thread to bring your little ‘tude. Aren’t you guys discussing insurance headquarters on the Erie thread? That seems far more interesting than discussing Philly neighborhoods! Enjoy!

I hope you see the irony in all the off-topic discussion you have partaken in and prompted.

[Mr. Map Man]

Regarding the OP:

I think Norristown will eventually rebound, but as others have said it will take a decade + until capital starts to meaningfully pour in. Some indicators of future growth include the re-constructed Markley street improvements and the Lafayette street extension project. For the latter, the big kicker is the on-ramp to I-276... this in combination with the extension would really go a long way towards alleviating congestion, providing accessibility to the town, connect the riverfront with the town, and create new opportunities for business. Wawa has already seized the opportunity with their new location on Ridge/Conshohocken state rd.

Some lingering problems need to get cleaned up, such as the barriers to home renovations and crime among others... but the seeds are being planted with these infrastructure projects. A HUGE accelerator would be if the Arcelor Mittal steel plant were to close & sell the property along the river (technically Plymouth township) for commercial development.

Nonetheless, rooting for Norristown to re-capture it's glory days!

[ActualUDResident]

If this area wasn't so assbackward, Norristown would be the thriving regional center it should be.

Instead, we have people largely from the suburbs pushing to turn KOP into one of those fake town centers in Virginia. We don't need to do that. We have actual urban town centers.

KOP is not a powerhouse or whatever other nonsense people want to say, and stop calling it Valley Forge. Valley Forge is a battlefield. KOP is a sprawled out disgrace that has literally never been important. All of those resources should go to the actual urban, actually important and historical boroughs it has continued to vacuum everything from, and those stores and businesses should be in Philadelphia. It's like people have gone mad or something, thinking bad ideas from the postwar era are good now. That rail should be in Philadelphia in the criminally underserved communities near the Art Museum. How is that not obvious to everyone else?

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by ActualUDResident

If this area wasn't so assbackward, Norristown would be the thriving regional center it should be.

Instead, we have people largely from the suburbs pushing to turn KOP into one of those fake town centers in Virginia. We don't need to do that. We have actual urban town centers.

KOP is not a powerhouse or whatever other nonsense people want to say, and stop calling it Valley Forge. Valley Forge is a battlefield. KOP is a sprawled out disgrace that has literally never been important. All of those resources should go to the actual urban, actually important and historical boroughs it has continued to vacuum everything from, and those stores and businesses should be in Philadelphia. It's like people have gone mad or something, thinking bad ideas from the postwar era are good now. That rail should be in Philadelphia in the criminally underserved communities near the Art Museum. How is that not obvious to everyone else?

While I share your general sentiment here, King of Prussia is now an important part of the region's economy, for better or for worse.

It's the second-largest employment center after Center City (original and "extended" to include University City; the two have pretty much become one now) as well as the second-largest edge city on the East Coast after that "fake town center in Virginia," Tysons (Corner), the ur-Edge City - it was featured in the Joel Garreau book that injected that term into the language.

It's also the premier high-end shopping center in the region. Would those stores look better on Walnut Street, or in Ardmore? You bet. But they're not there - they're in the King of Prussia mall, and it doesn't look like they're going to move unless all the money sloshing around near that mall does.

And while it could be better situated and more appealing to view from the main roads that pass it, the Village at Valley Forge is actually very well put together for an Instant Urbanist project. Since it doesn't look like we're going to abandon Auto Age suburbia wholesale anytime soon, I'll take efforts to retrofit walkable urbanity onto it as better than nothing.

[TownDweller]

Originally Posted by ActualUDResident

If this area wasn't so assbackward, Norristown would be the thriving regional center it should be.

Instead, we have people largely from the suburbs pushing to turn KOP into one of those fake town centers in Virginia. We don't need to do that. We have actual urban town centers.

KOP is not a powerhouse or whatever other nonsense people want to say, and stop calling it Valley Forge. Valley Forge is a battlefield. KOP is a sprawled out disgrace that has literally never been important. All of those resources should go to the actual urban, actually important and historical boroughs it has continued to vacuum everything from, and those stores and businesses should be in Philadelphia. It's like people have gone mad or something, thinking bad ideas from the postwar era are good now. That rail should be in Philadelphia in the criminally underserved communities near the Art Museum. How is that not obvious to everyone else?

But KOP is important, and it continues to expand. Love it or hate it, the new Town Center is real and is yet another draw to a vibrant and growing commercial center. Being adjacent to Valley Forge, a lovely area with rich historical significance, is a bonus. Investments are being made in KOP because developers believe they will make money doing it there. And clearly they are.

Norristown has high speed rail, is located on the river like KOP and has a longer history than KOP. But decades of decline, political maneuvering and the like made it what it is today. It has potential, but also a ways to go. If investors believe they can profit developing there, they will. That is exactly what is happening now in Conshohocken where the SORA West development will extend its transformation into the 21st century.

The commercial dynamism in KOP exists because it fills an experiential itch people have that Amazon could not fill. We should celebrate that, not oppose it.

[ActualUDResident]

No, KOP succeeds because it's vacuumed jobs and resources from every surrounding community.

Unfortunately MarketStEl is right. However, all of KOP could disappear tomorrow and not be missed. It's only "important" because we let it be. It should've been allowed to naturally become nothing but the mall and big box stores it really is. It is not dynamic nor should it be, and literally the only historic area in that vicinity is the battlefield.

This whole thing is happening because people stupidly do not want to simply let KOP age how it should. We need to stop thinking like it's the 1970s. Those places in Virginia only exist because DC has a height limit and is geographically small.

Norristown will literally never recover if KOP is given this treatment. Not ever. Yet somehow this is seen as a good idea.

[Pennsport]

Originally Posted by ActualUDResident

No, KOP succeeds because it's vacuumed jobs and resources from every surrounding community.

Unfortunately MarketStEl is right. However, all of KOP could disappear tomorrow and not be missed. It's only "important" because we let it be. It should've been allowed to naturally become nothing but the mall and big box stores it really is. It is not dynamic nor should it be, and literally the only historic area in that vicinity is the battlefield.

This whole thing is happening because people stupidly do not want to simply let KOP age how it should. We need to stop thinking like it's the 1970s. Those places in Virginia only exist because DC has a height limit and is geographically small.

Norristown will literally never recover if KOP is given this treatment. Not ever. Yet somehow this is seen as a good idea.

I'm confused as to what you mean by "let this continue," and "given this treatment," and "let it age naturally." How exactly would one stop private companies from locating in KOP or developers to create housing/retail that is eagerly gobbled up by residents? You do realize we live in a free market economic system, yes? It's pretty obvious that consumers have spoken with their dollars, and they very much like living, working and playing in a newly-created town system like KOP. You speak as if you believe the government stepped in and banned development in Norristown, while demanding development and infrastructure builds in KOP.

For the record, I hate these faux newly-developed "towns," but apparently tens of thousand of residents and dozens of major companies do not share my view.

[TownDweller]

Originally Posted by ActualUDResident

No, KOP succeeds because it's vacuumed jobs and resources from every surrounding community.

Unfortunately MarketStEl is right. However, all of KOP could disappear tomorrow and not be missed. It's only "important" because we let it be. It should've been allowed to naturally become nothing but the mall and big box stores it really is. It is not dynamic nor should it be, and literally the only historic area in that vicinity is the battlefield.

This whole thing is happening because people stupidly do not want to simply let KOP age how it should. We need to stop thinking like it's the 1970s. Those places in Virginia only exist because DC has a height limit and is geographically small.

Norristown will literally never recover if KOP is given this treatment. Not ever. Yet somehow this is seen as a good idea.

KOP's growth and expansion is ongoing and is not the result of stupid people, or 70's thinking. Some smart people invested money there, it worked and the continued development is building on the former success. Norristown was that way once, but those days are gone. It needs to retool itself, just like Conshohocken has.

Blame Norristown for its failings, don't blame KOP.