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I suspect a lot of Black West Philadelphians would disagree...but okay.
I'll give you one example, go to Temple town, who is using the market, going to the movies and enjoying all the stores that are there. It's clearly not just the students, so in fact the greater black community is enjoying the benefits of development in the form of amenities.....same with 40th street area. They are there; they are not made to feel unwelcome.
What would the community benefiting from development look like if not that?
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Originally Posted by FindingZen
I don't know if that hypothesis is accurate...but it's one thing to leave voluntarily; it's another to be forced out.
There’s only one way to be forced out, and that’s through a rise in property taxes that they cant cover. As someone pointed out above, its almost a mystery…how much are peoples taxes realling rising to the point where they cant cover the increase…especially in a city that was horrible and corrput on reassessments for decades?
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Originally Posted by FindingZen
The renters who are forced to move when landlords raise their rent dramatically or raze the property for more upscale development are not creating generational wealth. Maybe *some* North and West Philly homeowners who are shown the money use it to find greener pastures...but they're not necessarily buying another home in cash, especially in today's housing market.
Why don’t you assume that most people living there are long time homeowners? Shouldn’t they benefit with a rise in their wealth after riding the wave of decades upon decades of disinvestment. As for the renters…like I said above, renters are renters, why are you giving them rights they don’t have and don’t expect to have?
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Originally Posted by FindingZen
The price is that poor/working-class people, regardless of race, are mostly kicked out of said neighborhoods. Sometime ago in another thread - maybe the 2035 one? -I predicted that Philly may reach a tipping point in the next few decades that redevelopment/gentrification reaches a point where lower-income/working-class folks are compelled to move out to lower Bucks, eastern Delco, or even Camden.
You do know that this very day, most poor people ASPIRE to move out to DelCo, BucksCo and MontCo….for the schools alone! You are making it seem as if they love the city like we do, we are urbanists so we assume everyone is. Trust me, most regular people would move out to those areas for the schools alone just as the middle and upper middle class have. You think East DelCo saw a tremendous rise in black population because those people could no longer afford Southwest Philadelphia? Do you think all the people living there now, rich and middle class would rather be in the city?
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Originally Posted by FindingZen
So you are conceding that there may not be much of a cultural gathering place there while the original Chinatown disappears due to the arena.
Yes, but I would disagree that Chinatown would disappear.
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Originally Posted by FindingZen
The Piscataway, Pamunkey and Powhatan folks would probably say a lot of things about DC are "weird"...but I digress...
They would….what would be even weirder would be for an “America Town” 6 blocks from the Forbidden City (weird enough they have a McDs) or wherever Xi does his business….
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Originally Posted by FindingZen
cThis explains a lot of your perspective to me.
I grew up in a similar background but also have lived in Philly proper for a significant part of my life and have become sympathetic to those city residents who are far from upper-middle-income+.
I spent most of my life in Philadelphia proper, Germantown. But Im not ashamed of my background, my folks worked hard for it, and left the city so I could have a proper education. I'm also sympathetic but that doesn't mean that I can't be objective and look at the big picture of things. Folks are not "right" just because they are disadvantaged. I hope that wasn't a slight on me; we were doing so good!
Growing up in Cheltenham/Abington which is both racially and economically diverse shows me that such a community can exist and thrive. It also showed me that not all black people are poor, and have their own values and interests. I get that we should always stand up for the poor...but the BMC is always wholly ignored for some reason, like it doesn't exist, or like they're automatically supposed to align with poorer African Americans on principle. D.C. and Atlanta are so special because their BMC has been allowed to thrive and it works to the benefit of the whole...but I digress.
Last edited by PHILLYUPTOWN; 06-09-2023 at 12:28 AM..
Your beef should be with your former neighbors who chose to accept the program, collect the rent and move on. You can't be mad at people for looking to improve their housing situation within the system.
Ftr, section 8 would only make sense if a neighborhood was already declining or prices were low enough whereas section 8 makes sense. Section 8 people aren't getting housing in Rittenhouse. So maybe its a chicken and egg situation but i suspect for much of the Northeast, it was no longer desirable for middle class residents (for structural and aesthetic reasons, not even race), so new middle class residents were not moving in, so naturally (the housing cycle) the housing passed to the class below, and thats been going on since the beginning of time probably.
Nothing you can do is going to make a family with options and means choose a 3-1 airlight with a small garage and postage stamp front lawn, tiny galley kitchen, substandard HVAC (if at all) and a third bedroom the size of a closet if they have options. I read a book (Philadelphia: A 300 year history) where people stated when built (the 50s) that they were building the slums of the future because much of the Northeast Airlite belt is not all that desirable, and once the newness factor wore off, we are seeing the effects of that. And to top it off, transit is horrible, mass and roads; can you imagine the Blvd being apart of your daily life? Further, it's far from Center City and doesn't have much in the way of cultural amenities....the best we can hope for up there is a great diverse immigrant enclave like Queens, because to be frank, it's either that or the next North Philly; it'll never be a destination for the white middle class ever again.
My neighborhood isn't full of Section 8, so no beef with former neighbors. It wasn't former neighbors who helped ruin other neighborhoods with Section 8, it was investors who swooped in and never gave potential buyer occupiers a chance. I blame the government.
There are actually apartment buildings in Center City that accept Section 8. I remember a john was murdered in one a few years back not far from Rittenhouse.
Yes, NE Philly is either going to be the next Queens or the next Olney. I'm glad I never moved there.
I'll give you one example, go to Temple town, who is using the market, going to the movies and enjoying all the stores that are there. It's clearly not just the students, so in fact the greater black community is enjoying the benefits of development in the form of amenities.....same with 40th street area. They are there; they are not made to feel unwelcome.
What would the community benefiting from development look like if not that?
If you're including Progress Plaza (Fresh Grocer et al) in Temple Town, that wasn't built for students; that was established by OIC decades ago.
I *will* grant some businesses along the intersection of Broad and Cecil B. Moore do benefit long-term residents. I'll even concede that with many of the establishments along Baltimore Avenue in West Philly. However while I don't know the town-and-gown dynamics around Temple very well, I can definitely say there is tension between the long-term Black residents in West Philly who live(d) in the upper 40s Streets out to 52nd and beyond as rapidly rising rents and property taxes force them further away. You agree with part of my point below:
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There’s only one way to be forced out, and that’s through a rise in property taxes that they cant cover. As someone pointed out above, its almost a mystery…how much are peoples taxes really rising to the point where they cant cover the increase…especially in a city that was horrible and corrupt on reassessments for decades?
People paid the taxes based on the assessments they were given. It's not their fault that the city was inaccurate. Also, as new/rehabbed development rises around folks, it's inevitable that their property taxes will rise too
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Why don’t you assume that most people living there are long time homeowners?
Because we have the unenviable title of being the "poorest big city in America". (Which is kinda incredible when you think about it, considering Detroit. But I digress..)
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Shouldn’t they benefit with a rise in their wealth after riding the wave of decades upon decades of disinvestment.
You're assuming they 1) want to leave and 2) can pay for cash for a house elsewhere. They probably can't do the latter in this metro unless returning largely to the same situation they left.
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As for the renters…like I said above, renters are renters, why are you giving them rights they don’t have and don’t expect to have?
I'm sure similar logic was used in the 50s and 60s when highways - albeit less so in Philly - bisected and destroyed communities of color.
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You do know that this very day, most poor people ASPIRE to move out to DelCo, BucksCo and MontCo….for the schools alone! You are making it seem as if they love the city like we do, we are urbanists so we assume everyone is. Trust me, most regular people would move out to those areas for the schools alone just as the middle and upper middle class have. You think East DelCo saw a tremendous rise in black population because those people could no longer afford Southwest Philadelphia? Do you think all the people living there now, rich and middle class would rather be in the city?
I imagine a lot do and that the schools play a significant part in that decision. However, I don't know if rising rents and property taxes are the main reason why most of them left.
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They would….what would be even weirder would be for an “America Town” 6 blocks from the Forbidden City (weird enough they have a McDs) or wherever Xi does his business….
My point being is that I don't see the placement of DC's former Chinatown as weird; it just is (or was).
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I spent most of my life in Philadelphia proper, Germantown. But I'm not ashamed of my background, my folks worked hard for it, and left the city so I could have a proper education. I'm also sympathetic but that doesn't mean that I can't be objective and look at the big picture of things. Folks are not "right" just because they are disadvantaged. I hope that wasn't a slight on me; we were doing so good!
I can appreciate your folks making that decision as the same was done for me. I suppose my big picture may have a longer time frame.
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Growing up in Cheltenham/Abington which is both racially and economically diverse shows me that such a community can exist and thrive. It also showed me that not all black people are poor, and have their own values and interests. I get that we should always stand up for the poor...but the BMC is always wholly ignored for some reason, like it doesn't exist, or like they're automatically supposed to align with poorer African Americans on principle. D.C. and Atlanta are so special because their BMC has been allowed to thrive and it works to the benefit of the whole...but I digress.
I grew up primarily in Abington as well. I agree the area is one of the better current examples of relatively diverse racial harmony and prosperity. I can especially appreciate your perspective if you are a Millennial or younger. I am an older Gen X who can remember when Black people were not so readily accepted. Even today, I hear there were recent ASD school board candidates who views on race were not exactly inclusive.
Cheltenham is even better for the BMC, notwithstanding high property taxes. However, there are now some non-Black folks who avoid considering Cheltenham because of the evolving population.
I consider myself to be BMC - perhaps even low-end BUC based on my household size - but with family members, friends and acquaintances in the BLC, I still have sympathy for what they are enduring, not to mention - circling back towards the OP - other marginalized communities of color.
My neighborhood isn't full of Section 8, so no beef with former neighbors. It wasn't former neighbors who helped ruin other neighborhoods with Section 8, it was investors who swooped in and never gave potential buyer occupiers a chance. I blame the government.
There are actually apartment buildings in Center City that accept Section 8. I remember a john was murdered in one a few years back not far from Rittenhouse.
Yes, NE Philly is either going to be the next Queens or the next Olney. I'm glad I never moved there.
no, phillyuptown is right. section 8 is a financial calculation and that calculation makes sense where prices have already declined because people don't want to live there. there are some programs available that increase section 8 payments for "neighborhoods of opportunity" or whatever and rittenhouse has some buildings run by non-profits. one has to remember that section 8 is a replacement for the highrise projects and in that sense they have been successful. perhaps interestingly, I have seen some interviews with new section 8 neighbors in NE Philly and for them, it is a huge upgrade. the reality is the city is a bad deal for most people who are neither rich nor poor.
I'll have a longer, more engaged response with your posts later on tonight — I'm busy procrastinating on a grocery run I need to make — but I need to post this right now to pick an all-too-common grammar nit that presses my hot button. You even recognized the problem without knowing it:
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Originally Posted by PHILLYUPTOWN
Because we have the unenviable title of being the "poorest big city in America". (Which is kinda incredible when you think about it, considering Detroit. But I digress..)
This particular phrase is inaccurate, and your mentioning Detroit — 31.8 percent of whose residents live in poverty, well above our 22.3 percent (which, by the way, represents a drop from its level of 25 percent in the previous decade) — shows why.
We are:
the poorest of the nation's 10 largest cities
the poorest city with 1 million or more residents in the country (as of now, there are only 10 of these)
If you want to use a phrase that's less of a mouthful, say that we're "the poorest city of [its|our] size in the country".
no, phillyuptown is right. section 8 is a financial calculation and that calculation makes sense where prices have already declined because people don't want to live there. there are some programs available that increase section 8 payments for "neighborhoods of opportunity" or whatever and rittenhouse has some buildings run by non-profits. one has to remember that section 8 is a replacement for the highrise projects and in that sense they have been successful. perhaps interestingly, I have seen some interviews with new section 8 neighbors in NE Philly and for them, it is a huge upgrade. the reality is the city is a bad deal for most people who are neither rich nor poor.
LOL! It's all good for the Section 8 recipient, but not so good for the people who bought in to live there.
People should be encouraged to strive through good life decisions to move up.
I'll have a longer, more engaged response with your posts later on tonight — I'm busy procrastinating on a grocery run I need to make — but I need to post this right now to pick an all-too-common grammar nit that presses my hot button. You even recognized the problem without knowing it:
This particular phrase is inaccurate, and your mentioning Detroit — 31.8 percent of whose residents live in poverty, well above our 22.3 percent (which, by the way, represents a drop from its level of 25 percent in the previous decade) — shows why.
We are:
the poorest of the nation's 10 largest cities
the poorest city with 1 million or more residents in the country (as of now, there are only 10 of these)
If you want to use a phrase that's less of a mouthful, say that we're "the poorest city of [its|our] size in the country".
One comment on that, I noticed Philadelphia's poverty rate has lowered at a quicker pace than the #9 spot, Houston Texas, which has a poverty rate around 19.5% (and similar income stats).
Could they perhaps swap places within the next decade?
Could Philadelphia finally shake that semi-inaccurate statistic by 2030?
I grew up primarily in Abington as well. I agree the area is one of the better current examples of relatively diverse racial harmony and prosperity. I can especially appreciate your perspective if you are a Millennial or younger. I am an older Gen X who can remember when Black people were not so readily accepted. Even today, I hear there were recent ASD school board candidates who views on race were not exactly inclusive.
Cheltenham is even better for the BMC, notwithstanding high property taxes. However, there are now some non-Black folks who avoid considering Cheltenham because of the evolving population.
I consider myself to be BMC - perhaps even low-end BUC based on my household size - but with family members, friends and acquaintances in the BLC, I still have sympathy for what they are enduring, not to mention - circling back towards the OP - other marginalized communities of color.
Yeah, I grew up in Cheltenham, which has been trending more black for probably 30 years...its been a relatively slow transition, which is the best one can hope for. I'm a millennial, so when I was there I would say 30% of my homeroom was Jewish, 30% were black and 30% were white (mostly catholic), the rest asian (mostly Korean)...the great unifier was that we were all Liberal (and our hatred/insecurity around you galloping ghosts, who we knew looked down on us. LOL)...but all "Left" without question.....its changing/changed now because of what you said....they use taxes as the excuse but we all know many people are uncomfortable with that level of diversity; even still, those that don't choose the schools still stay in the township and choose private. But we are digressing....
to reel it back in, come to think of it, there are cultural places that asians use in place of Chinatown, one is in Cheltenham (but thats Korean), and perhaps Upper Darby (when In doubt follow the H-Mart), but in those places they comprise of a subgroup, amongst other groups.
I am entirely confident in the survival of Chinatown in Philadelphia, look at the New York example...it survives and GROWS despite the hyper gentrification of Downtown Manhattan. SOHO, NOHO, NoLitA, Lower East Side and East Village all surround it, and yet it grows.
Last edited by PHILLYUPTOWN; 06-09-2023 at 08:56 PM..
One comment on that, I noticed Philadelphia's poverty rate has lowered at a quicker pace than the #9 spot, Houston Texas, which has a poverty rate around 19.5% (and similar income stats).
Could they perhaps swap places within the next decade?
Could Philadelphia finally shake that semi-inaccurate statistic by 2030?
We can hope. The trendline definitely looks good. Wonder why no one's reporting on it, and what's working to reduce poverty in Philadelphia?
We can hope. The trendline definitely looks good. Wonder why no one's reporting on it, and what's working to reduce poverty in Philadelphia?
I have no data to support this, but I would imagine, it's in part due to movement of people. As our city has concentrically gown outward, filling in former low-income gaps like Hawthorne, Fishtown, Port Richmond, Brewerytown, West Philly, etc..., many former residents have been pushed further from the city core. In many instances this is out of the city entirely to the inner burbs.
But don't worry, there's still plenty of poverty to go around, and since people who can't support one child continually have 6-12 kids, I don't see this being solved anytime soon.
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