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Nah. You can make inferences, and if your in a particular sub-group, and know it well, you can be comfortable in making such statements. The same way a comedian makes observations, especially black comedians, and everybody laughs and confirms it....we are more alike than we are not. And of course there are outliers, as there always are....i'm not uncomfortable being the only black person in a bar or restaurant, but thats because im well used to it due to my upbringing; but even im always looking for the other minority, thats the life of being a minority. You can't understand it. I stand by my statement.
Most people would accept the idea that many (most) white people are uncomfortable being around a large number of African Americans, them in the minority...its confirmed in many ways; almost naturally the opposite would be true, especially for people who live segregated lives, segregated neighborhoods and segregated schools? Granted a lot of it is class and i would think a working class white person may equally be uncomfortable in a place like Talula's.
Hell, Ive personally experienced parties at college that cleared out once enough black kids showed up; and restaurants that transitioned once it became popular with black crowds...cough...steak48...cough.
Its like that episode of season 4 of "The Wire" when Prez treated the 3 kids to dinner at a fancy downtown Baltimore restaurant; and after getting over the anxiety of people staring at them, their own projections of people not wanting them there, not understanding the etiquette...being out of their element, at the end they just wanted what they were familiar with and ended up at McDonalds. Now picture 4 young adults from 22nd and Lehigh at Zahav.
and those middle class type blacks/uppies or generally better assimilated blacks (who are that way by whatever consequence) do enjoy the restaurants, mainstream nightlife and everything the city has to offer, like their white peers.
I'm talking about the black majority who are born and raised in the City and of working class who may or may not have traits of which you/we deplore. They will exist and they WILL utilize downtown; so hopefully we find a way to make it work rather than close the stuff they like; which will make situations like "South Street" even worse; a whole bunch of people with no place to go so they kinda just cruise around.
Not to mention it makes the wealth divide worse, the us vs them divide worse, gives the anti-gentrification crowd merit, etc. Building this new revitalized city and downtown; it's important that they feel included.
I actually think the new Market East would go a long way in doing that by including the Sixers in the downtown revitalization; which will give its fans a stake in downtown and make downtown more diverse and egalitarian as a whole.....more suburbanites downtown, more older african americans, more working class whites downtown...all this is good so downtown doesn't become simply a playground for the wealthy, an elite, yuppie/hipster, progressive ghetto with a bunch of college students running around. LOL.
I actually fall into that category you describe in your first sentence; my Mom (b. Omaha, Neb.; raised in Horton, Kan., where she was one of three Blacks in her high school graduating class of ~35 in 1948) enrolled both my brother and me in white schools the moment we reached school age, and I spent the last six years in Kansas City's most prestigious private school for boys (since gone co-ed); again, I was one of three Black students in my class of 52. {And I was at the top of that class from the semester I entered until the one before I graduated; I graduated second — and a teacher there told me some years later that it may not have been the "senior slide" but rather Fear of a Black Valedictorian [I would have been the school's first] that put me there.)
Having established that, I agree that we need to make Center City's attractions work for everyone, class background/degree of assimilation be damned. The hard part, however, is that some of what will make it work will likely require "code-switching." Those white kids who adopt the "thug" attitude will likely know that they have to put that aside in certain settings. Some Blacks who d o don't quite understand that, or object to having to do so.
Based on what you have contributed to this forum since your arrival (and you have contributed a lot that's valuable to this forum), I suspect you understand how, where and when to code-switch. Not all young Blacks do, it seems to me. (Given that I "grew up integrated," I've had to learn how to do it in reverse.)
Oh, and: While I have suggested alternate sites out of respect for the sentiments of the Chinatowners, I do like the Fashion District site because of its unparalleled transit connectivity and said as much in an early assessment of the site for Phillymag.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 06-25-2023 at 12:08 AM..
I actually fall into that category you describe in your first sentence; my Mom (b. Omaha, Neb.; raised in Horton, Kan., where she was one of three Blacks in her high school graduating class of ~35 in 1948) enrolled both my brother and me in white schools the moment we reached school age, and I spent the last six years in Kansas City's most prestigious private school for boys (since gone co-ed); again, I was one of three Black students in my class of 52. {And I was at the top of that class from the semester I entered until the one before I graduated; I graduated second — and a teacher there told me some years later that it may not have been the "senior slide" but rather Fear of a Black Valedictorian [I would have been the school's first] that put me there.)
Having established that, I agree that we need to make Center City's attractions work for everyone, class background/degree of assimilation be damned. The hard part, however, is that some of what will make it work will likely require "code-switching." Those white kids who adopt the "thug" attitude will likely know that they have to put that aside in certain settings. Some Blacks who d o don't quite understand that, or object to having to do so.
Based on what you have contributed to this forum since your arrival (and you have contributed a lot that's valuable to this forum), I suspect you understand how, where and when to code-switch. Not all young Blacks do, it seems to me. (Given that I "grew up integrated," I've had to learn how to do it in reverse.)
Oh, and: While I have suggested alternate sites out of respect for the sentiments of the Chinatowners, I do like the Fashion District site because of its unparalleled transit connectivity and said as much in an early assessment of the site for Phillymag.
Same to your first paragraph; Im sure you would say that experience was the defining moment of your life that made you who you are. I always valued my high school education because above all it taught me to be able to speak to and relate to other people with confidence, gave me a set of diverse interests (through friends of all stripes) I may not have had otherwise and perspective. Cheltenham had rich blacks, poor blacks, rich whites, poor whites, christians, jews, catholics and asians...suburban but not stuffy, progressive minded...and was a place you could learn. I'm eternally in debt to the place; it made a difference.
As for This Stuff, you know, Our Thing...Ive been reading for close to 20 years. LoL. This and SSP and back in the day PhillyBlog, PhiladelphiaSpeaks...I go back to Bradley's Philly Skyline and have followed this stuff since school days (2004).
Like you, I am always disappointed that many of ours don't subscribe to the give and take form of race relations, where we have to meet each other half way. I find that enough do to be optimistic about it all.
But thats the point, what I bolded, I wouldn't want a "perfect" Center City if it comes at the expense of other classes and races; even though im 100% pro development. Thats why Id reiterate that a downtown Sixers arena does a good job of bringing people downtown that aren't normally inclined; and the attractions that would cater to this crowd would be a little different than the usual stuff that certain people get excited about downtown...Im glad they plan to keep the movie theater, arcade and all the stuff that is deemed a success, and attracts a diverse crowd. Thats a better, and more egalitarian, use of the space than more condos which, as people mentioned, would be a worse scenario for Chinatown than a few thousand temporary guests and potential customers.
Last edited by PHILLYUPTOWN; 06-25-2023 at 07:47 PM..
The generalizations are just too much victim olympics for me.
I wish the city the best, though. I vibrant, peaceful, (as much as possible) crime-free downtown would be wonderful.
We'll find out soon enough what additional ideas officials and developers have in store.
That wasn’t my intention. I don’t play that game.
But we should be worried that most of the downtown Wendys are gone, Burger Kings, McDonalds are gone, Midtown Diner and other diners, Olive Garden, Fridays, Applebees and the other inexpensive chains, KFCs, inexpensive food court…and now talk of WaWa pulling out.
When I started going downtown there was a McDs on South Street, Walnut Street, South Broad, Girard Avenue, Arch Street and two on Market Street between 11th and 13th (one UG) and one underground Suburban Station. All gone. I know it’s McDs but it says something…lol
“Let them eat cake….or at a Steven Starr restaurant” lol
But we should be worried that most of the downtown Wendys are gone, Burger Kings, McDonalds are gone, Midtown Diner and other diners, Olive Garden, Fridays, Applebees and the other inexpensive chains, KFCs, inexpensive food court…and now talk of WaWa pulling out.
When I started going downtown there was a McDs on South Street, Walnut Street, South Broad, Girard Avenue, Arch Street and two on Market Street between 11th and 13th (one UG) and one underground Suburban Station. All gone. I know it’s McDs but it says something…lol
“Let them eat cake….or at a Steven Starr restaurant” lol
I agree that more options are better than fewer and fast food is popular across all demographics, maybe just more popular with some. But are you saying that there is a conspiracy to close all these restaurants to keep black people out of Center City? (Sorry if I'm not reading between the lines correctly.)
I agree that more options are better than fewer and fast food is popular across all demographics, maybe just more popular with some. But are you saying that there is a conspiracy to close all these restaurants to keep black people out of Center City? (Sorry if I'm not reading between the lines correctly.)
Actually, it's a conspiracy to corral all the fast-food places into the 1500 block of Chestnut.
Wendy's, Popeyes and Five Guys all have stores on that block, and I don't think any of them have any other Center City locations left.
Shake Shack doesn't count. In terms of how fast they get the sandwiches out to you (edited to add: and how little they cost), Dunkin' should also count, but people don't seem to think of either it or Starbucks as "fast food." (But Mickey D's does consider both competition.) There are several locations of both in Center City, though Starbucks has closed a couple of stores recently.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 06-27-2023 at 12:17 PM..
Most people would accept the idea that many (most) white people are uncomfortable being around a large number of African Americans, them in the minority...its confirmed in many ways; almost naturally the opposite would be true, especially for people who live segregated lives, segregated neighborhoods and segregated schools? Granted a lot of it is class and i would think a working class white person may equally be uncomfortable in a place like Talula's.
Im sure there are racist people who avoid anyone who looks different from themselves, no matter the race. However, some of this sort of thing is people tend to be insular and uncomfortable outside their own culture. Not making excuses for the minority racist butt heads out there though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHILLYUPTOWN
Its like that episode of season 4 of "The Wire" when Prez treated the 3 kids to dinner at a fancy downtown Baltimore restaurant; and after getting over the anxiety of people staring at them, their own projections of people not wanting them there, not understanding the etiquette...being out of their element, at the end they just wanted what they were familiar with and ended up at McDonalds. Now picture 4 young adults from 22nd and Lehigh at Zahav.
Thats not isolated to black folks though. I grew up in the poor white trash (PWT) category in a heavily mixed neighborhood. As a white person I was just as uncomfortable and stared at just as much by the upper crusts because I dressed, talked, and acted different from them. Plus the pretentiosness in some of these places where table etiquette is very rigid and the air is stuffy...well...ya...Even though Ive grown out of my former PWT self and know etiquette and how to carry myself in formal settings, Im still uncomfortable.
I agree that more options are better than fewer and fast food is popular across all demographics, maybe just more popular with some. But are you saying that there is a conspiracy to close all these restaurants to keep black people out of Center City? (Sorry if I'm not reading between the lines correctly.)
Not entirely; but if they became hangouts for poorer people; many times students...and they close because they became a nuisance....thats closer to what you are saying. I'm not saying that; I dont know why they all closed. Id assume its not a race thing, but a poorer/working class thing...or the rent got too high; I would have thought those places made good business, so why have so many closed?
Im saying if all those places close, and other places that were popular with black/mixed crowd, it would have the effect of keeping (black and w.c.) people out of CC, conspiracy or not. I forgot to add Liberty Place, that closed for AIP.....and Copa's closing, also hosted a mixed (income and race) crowd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl
Actually, it's a conspiracy to corral all the fast-food places into the 1500 block of Chestnut.
Wendy's, Popeyes and Five Guys all have stores on that block, and I don't think any of them have any other Center City locations left.
Shake Shack doesn't count. In terms of how fast they get the sandwiches out to you (edited to add: and how little they cost), Dunkin' should also count, but people don't seem to think of either it or Starbucks as "fast food." (But Mickey D's does consider both competition.) There are several locations of both in Center City, though Starbucks has closed a couple of stores recently.
Theres a popeyes on Market at 10th I think, next to the Panda Express that was once McDonalds. And yeah DD and Starbucks don't count...they're like cockroaches; Banks, Cell Phone Stores, DD and Starbucks, If the internet kills retail, those will be the last to go, LOL.
Last edited by PHILLYUPTOWN; 06-27-2023 at 06:22 PM..
Thats not isolated to black folks though. I grew up in the poor white trash (PWT) category in a heavily mixed neighborhood. As a white person I was just as uncomfortable and stared at just as much by the upper crusts because I dressed, talked, and acted different from them. Plus the pretentiosness in some of these places where table etiquette is very rigid and the air is stuffy...well...ya...Even though Ive grown out of my former PWT self and know etiquette and how to carry myself in formal settings, Im still uncomfortable.
Agreed, As Am I...its our own problem to deal with, we're not blaming anyone. I said it was mostly a class issue. CC (and Philadelphia in general) can be highly class stratified like that...one one side the Upper Class/Hipster/Yuppie/Suburban raised/NorthWest liberal class (and rest assure, there are minorities in this class) that would enjoy Brahaus and Center City Sips and Diner En Blanc and Rittenhouse Arts and all that.....and then "lifers" black, white and hispanic that largely don't participate in the evolution of Center City and Philadelphia in general. These classes only seem to come together through sports or something, like when we celebrate a championship. That's why I'd be disappointed if all we have downtown are upscale "Starr" type restaurants..it'll make that divide worse. I think the only mid market chains left are Maggianos, Cheesecake, Hard Rock and Iron Hill (If you want to count them)...and as MSEl said...plenty of fast casual.
Last edited by PHILLYUPTOWN; 06-27-2023 at 06:32 PM..
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