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I agree, but that would allow more transit oriented development. More higher density apartment complexes and shopping centers, which would cause people to use the system.
Maybe so. I'm not a big fan of urbanism and the vast majority of people choose suburbanism over urbanism. If a city (Phoenix, Scottsdale, etc) want to focus more on urban growth, that is up to the elected officials and taxpayers of those cities. The taxpayers will be on the hook for a lot of that money (which is not the way it should be).
I guess they should vote differently if they don't want to be on the hook. The city of Phoenix is a good example of that. The .02% tax on groceries would not be there had they not voted for the light-rail. I wonder if a .02% grocery tax had been included with the light-rail plan at the time, would it still have passed? And that is not even considering what the tax money could have been used for instead....
But that is spilled milk, so I digress.
The flip side of that is public transportation is cheaper for both people who use it and those who don't. I am not saying this logic always works, but there it is. People spend less on gas who use public transit and those who still drive will spend less because gas costs less.
People who don't drive make the roads clearer, so there isn't as much traffic which wastes gas.
I am not saying these arguments are always logical, but they do have some merit.
Personally, I think Phoenix would benefit from increased public transit use. Downtown Scottsdale would have a bigger customer base if it were connected by light rail to downtown Phoenix.
When most of your city's population growth comes from annexation thats not really nothing to brag about. Unlike Phoenix, Philadelphia actually has to work hard to increase its population size. We can't just aggressively annexed neighboring suburbs almost at will like your city can. And then Phoenix posters have the nerve to brag about it like they actually accomplished something. I also find it funny that so many people praise Pheonix's as a top 5 city but yet it doesn't even make the top 10 in any other population statistics other that city proper.
Gwilly, please don't be bitter that Phoenix passed Philadelphia in population.
Who cares how Phoenix grew? The point is that the city has added more people in the past year WITHOUT adding more land. Phoenix is much more attractive than Philadelphia in terms of climate, lifestyle, attitude, and future outlook.
Philadelphia is cold, dirty, angry, and people are moving out to Montgomery, Delaware, and Chester counties in droves. If I lived in Philadelphia and my neighbors were moving elsewhere, I guess I would be mad too.
Phoenix has left Philadelphia in the dust. We're not concerned about smaller, decaying cities.
The flip side of that is public transportation is cheaper for both people who use it and those who don't.
It might be cheaper for those who use it. Only 25% of the operating costs of the light-rail, for example, are covered by the ridership, and 75% of it is covered by tax dollars. The full 1.6 billion to build it was covered by tax dollars and the ridership never will pay a dime for that with ticket sales. That's a pretty big subsidy. So, yes, those who use it probably find it to be a cheaper option.
For those who don't, it's just more money out of their wallets. So those who don't use it pay (heavily) for it and get nothing in return.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown85
People who don't drive make the roads clearer, so there isn't as much traffic which wastes gas.
I ran the numbers on this once. I'll have to try and dig up that old post. But at best, the light rail removes an unnoticeable amount of cars from the freeways in Phoenix. And it has made traffic worse on some city streets.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown85
I am not saying these arguments are always logical, but they do have some merit.
At least you admit it's not logical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chitown85
Personally, I think Phoenix would benefit from increased public transit use. Downtown Scottsdale would have a bigger customer base if it were connected by light rail to downtown Phoenix.
I just don't see that many public transit users all-of-a-sudden patronizing Scottsdale businesses just because the light-rail goes there. If they don't already patronize those businesses, they are not going to make some long, out-of-the-way train trip to do so in the future.
Like I said, if Scottsdale wants to add the very significant tax burden on to themselves, that's great for them. I wish them all the luck in that.
It doesn't matter. Seniors & Hispanics (who have more children) account for a large proportion of the growth. Not exactly a demographic that points to long term diverse economic vitality.
It doesn't matter. Seniors & Hispanics (who have more children) account for a large proportion of the growth. Not exactly a demographic that points to long term diverse economic vitality.
Seniors will continue to account for a large proportion of growth for a long time. Soon the baby boomer generation will begin to retire and they will bring more money to the valley with their life styles.
Forward looking communities like Val Vista Lakes are beginning to look ahead to the future to learn what the demographics will be in 5-10 years and how they should gear the community and activities to account for the changes.
This community has activities for all ages now, but they feel they may need additional activities/amenities for the retiring boomers.
Hispanics are a large percentage of the valley population and a large part of the work force, and will continue to be a contributor to the valley. A number I heard is that around 100,000 left the valley, and that had a negative impact on home sales and rentals.
Most all immigrants, no matter from what country, usually come here and work at low level labor type jobs. Their children grow up, get an education and work at higher level jobs.
All of our forefathers were immigrants, and all of the generations before us have contributed to the vitalization of America in some way. It's no different with Hispanics. (Not discussing or defending illegal immigration. For the record, I'm opposed to illegal immigration)
I think we'll always be the retirement destination, and that does help our economy because of the money the retirees spend in activities and housing.
However, I believe we desperately need to bring in more business and the Governor should be working on tax incentives and plans to attract them.
Mesa has some huge plans for the General Motors Proving Grounds which will be vacated soon. Below are a couple of articles describing the DMB Associates and Gaylord's convention center plans.
Gaylord unveils design plans for Mesa resort: Early ballots began Thursday for $55M bed tax incentive | North America > United States from AllBusiness.com (http://www.allbusiness.com/environment-natural-resources/land-use-development/12026771-1.html - broken link)
To me, it makes sense for Phoenix to grow, but this does not necessarily make it great for SFH real estate. I think the trend for the next ten years is for people to be like me, very mobile, commute out of Phoenix to other cities for work (changing work locations every 12 months or so), and to give up family life and stay single - not even have pets.
The trend is still outsourcing of jobs. Outsourcing is forcing us here in the U.S. to become extremely competitive and mobile and work in other cities for the top pay while the unemployment rate hovers around European style 10%. I have sort of a niche field and I had only a total of six weeks without work since the summer of 1985. I'm well into the upper middle class income. But my extreme mobile lifestyle forces me to live like a college student. I have very few furnishings in the current city where I work because I either have to store it or move it to a new city. I'm working in California now, and my last day on the job will be December 3. .On December 6 I will be working on the east coast for a different client.
My tax credits are several times a mortgage interest deduction and deductions for two dependents (if I had any). My income tax rate (state and federal combined) most years is 10% even though my income is well into the six figures.
Phoenix is great for people like myself because even though it's not in the center of the US, the weather is usually great for flying, and the Sky Harbor Airport is very good. In essence, Phoenix is my bedroom community. My good furniture (Arizona leather, Copenhagen) are at my Phoenix apartment while my working area apartment has Ikea!
I think Phoenix will start seeing super deluxe luxury apartment complexes in the future to accomodate people with the portable lifestyle who don't want to own real estate yet want some permanent place to call home and use it as a getaway. Such apartments will have thicker walls and floors with soundproofing, or even separate buildings, attached garages, be within walking distance to upscale watering holes and restaurants and bookstores, maybe even be near a light rail stop so that people can have easy access to the airport or to downtown to watch basketball or baseball.
This is my dream for Phoenix. There are enough mobile people with high disposable income who want to spend it on some peaceful lusury place to call home on weekends.
Gwilly, please don't be bitter that Phoenix passed Philadelphia in population.
Who cares how Phoenix grew? The point is that the city has added more people in the past year WITHOUT adding more land. Phoenix is much more attractive than Philadelphia in terms of climate, lifestyle, attitude, and future outlook.
Philadelphia is cold, dirty, angry, and people are moving out to Montgomery, Delaware, and Chester counties in droves. If I lived in Philadelphia and my neighbors were moving elsewhere, I guess I would be mad too.
Phoenix has left Philadelphia in the dust. We're not concerned about smaller, decaying cities.
You know its one thing to have a debate on Phoenix's annexation but its is another thing to just bash a city just for the sake of bashing it for no reason. Philly is not a decaying city anymore.Philly has really seen a lot of improvements over the decade. It is actually increasing in population not decreasing and is expected to be around 1.6 million people when the new census results get released. So its not like Phoenix is that much larger anyway. Like I said before on the previous post, comparing Phoenix and Philly from a city proper standpoint isn't a good comparison because of the huge city limits difference. Comparing the two from a metropolitan area standpoint is way more accurate comparison. The Phoenix metro area is over 4 million while the Philadelphia metro area is well over 6 million. Also another fact you probably didn't know is that the Philadelphia Area is actually more populated than the entire state of ARIZONA!! So to say that the Phoenix area has left Philadelphia area in the dust is about as stupid as it gets.
The Phoenix metro area is over 4 million while the Philadelphia metro area is well over 6 million. Also another fact you probably didn't know is that the Philadelphia Area is actually more populated than the entire state of ARIZONA!! So to say that the Phoenix area has left Philadelphia area in the dust is about as stupid as it gets.
Strange where did u get that idea? As of August 2010 Philadelphia metro had a population of over 5 million. Arizona's is nearing 7 million. Philadelphia's metro population was at 6.4 million as of August 2010. Arizona had 6.5 million in 2008. A few hundred thousand people have moved here since then.
To me, it makes sense for Phoenix to grow, but this does not necessarily make it great for SFH real estate. I think the trend for the next ten years is for people to be like me, very mobile, commute out of Phoenix to other cities for work (changing work locations every 12 months or so), and to give up family life and stay single - not even have pets.
The trend is still outsourcing of jobs. Outsourcing is forcing us here in the U.S. to become extremely competitive and mobile and work in other cities for the top pay while the unemployment rate hovers around European style 10%. I have sort of a niche field and I had only a total of six weeks without work since the summer of 1985. I'm well into the upper middle class income. But my extreme mobile lifestyle forces me to live like a college student. I have very few furnishings in the current city where I work because I either have to store it or move it to a new city. I'm working in California now, and my last day on the job will be December 3. .On December 6 I will be working on the east coast for a different client.
My tax credits are several times a mortgage interest deduction and deductions for two dependents (if I had any). My income tax rate (state and federal combined) most years is 10% even though my income is well into the six figures.
Phoenix is great for people like myself because even though it's not in the center of the US, the weather is usually great for flying, and the Sky Harbor Airport is very good. In essence, Phoenix is my bedroom community. My good furniture (Arizona leather, Copenhagen) are at my Phoenix apartment while my working area apartment has Ikea!
I think Phoenix will start seeing super deluxe luxury apartment complexes in the future to accomodate people with the portable lifestyle who don't want to own real estate yet want some permanent place to call home and use it as a getaway. Such apartments will have thicker walls and floors with soundproofing, or even separate buildings, attached garages, be within walking distance to upscale watering holes and restaurants and bookstores, maybe even be near a light rail stop so that people can have easy access to the airport or to downtown to watch basketball or baseball.
This is my dream for Phoenix. There are enough mobile people with high disposable income who want to spend it on some peaceful lusury place to call home on weekends.
That's kind of an elitist dream.
Outsourcing and commuting out of state for work only puts Phoenix in a more desperate situation for those people who want to live and work here.
Most people are not fortunate enough to be able to live here part-time and travel around the country for higher-paid jobs.
The people who abandon Phoenix for their work and live in those luxurious apartments on weekends are among the elite few. The rest of the population will be stuck with an increasing unemployment rate, low wages, and decreasing home values.
Probably the only good thing that would result from your idea is less traffic on the streets and freeways but that is minute in comparison to the other things that would happen.
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