Buckeye Police - Black Friday - Police Brutality? (Phoenix: how much, casino)

[keninaz]

Originally Posted by slackjaw

This is insane. So if I'm an innocent customer I'm locked in because someone else in the store has hidden something? Sorry but if I'm trying to leave and the employees have purposely locked the doors to prevent exit I'm putting something large and heavy thru them.

I bet the local fire marshal also loved this plan.


I believe they took him to the ground for resisting, not shoplifting. As others have said I wasn't there so can't be sure but I know one of the charges he was booked for was resisting arrest.

You know what, it was a Mom and Pop owned Ace. And you don't have to like it but the owners were sick and tired of the people from the neighboring town sending people over to our town to shoplift, and they did, with lists of what to take no less.
The store was located in a small town and we rarely caught anyone that was from our town unless it was a young kid.
The owner kept a pistol in his office and when he heard the code either he or his wife would grab the gun just to make sure the clown that was shoplifting didn't get any ideas after smashing his way out of the store..
And by the way, we also sold guns in the store so we were taking no chances, with anyone.
Local communities do things a lot differently that the big cities and get away with more. And there were only two glass doors on the store so it was pretty quick to lock them quickly.
The locals knew what we did and they were all for catching the thieves. If you didn't like it, shop in the next town as we were the only hardware store in town.
And with the PD offices directly across the street it was a matter of minutes and we had an LEO at the front door to assist.
But we stopped the jerks from coming to our store to steal.
I managed the sporting goods department where we carried long guns, rifles and shotguns, and I was armed, concealed, with the owner's permission. We did not want someone to grab a gun while looking at it and run out the front door.
Same thing in most guns stores I have ever been in. All the employees are armed.

[TBCasino]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

Thanks for clarification on the concealment issue. Regardless, this is way over the line. Shoplifting is a non-violent crime and force should not be exerted unless the suspect goes there first.

The question is, did the suspect go there first?

A lot of people tend to jump to conclusions based on the middle - or the ending of a police in action video. Few ask "what happened before the pepper spray or takedown?".

Maybe the Police were in the wrong, and if they were, they deserve whatever reprimand / punishment / professional standards action is coming their way, but maybe - just maybe, they were in the right. Right now, we just don't know.

[TBCasino]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

I don't think the cops should be fired. They acted like cops. The blame to my mind is on Walmart for hiring off duty police to act as store detectives. They do not have the training for dealing with customers, recognizing shoplifting behavior, knowing how to deal with a suspected shoplifter. If Walmart needed additional security staff they should have used their own people or hired staff from an agency and given them proper training.

I'm not sure if you're being serious here, but I'll play. LE in AZ has eons more training than any Walmart proprietary security guard - and about 99.9 percent of pretty much any security guard agency in the state. The Police in AZ don't even have to get a security guard card, you know why? The training to become LE is far, far beyond what DPS requires to be a licensed security guard in the state. AZPOST agrees, and so does the AZ legislature.

The vast majority of police-work is customer service. The police deal with people all day, suspects in this, complainants in that, situations that range from "my neighbor told me he killed somebody" to, "I left my iPhone on the trunk of my car when it was towed, it fell off on the 51, can you guys go look and see if you can find it?" ( that was an actual call by the way ), LE is more than prepared to deal with / and or look for shoplifters.

[nightnurse613]

When someone comes up from behind you and grabs your hands your first instinct is to resist.Remember the protesters sitting on the ground when the police had told them to move and the pepper spray came out? Resisting arrest (or a lawful order)-it's lucky they didn't get shot when the protestors took their hands out to wipe their eyes. You can bet your Christmas cookies that, despite what this man's true intentions were, he will be charged with something (Child Endangerment). That will lesson the financial blow when he foolishly sues WalMart (or the PD). It's time to end this no-holds-barred Black Friday event (especially for those small items where you save $5 off a $20 purchase. Best Buy gave you a ticket for merchandise you wanted before you got in the store, you were guaranteed the merchandise if you had a ticket so no need to push or shove.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by TBCasino

I'm not sure if you're being serious here, but I'll play. LE in AZ has eons more training than any Walmart proprietary security guard - and about 99.9 percent of pretty much any security guard agency in the state. The Police in AZ don't even have to get a security guard card, you know why? The training to become LE is far, far beyond what DPS requires to be a licensed security guard in the state. AZPOST agrees, and so does the AZ legislature.

The vast majority of police-work is customer service. The police deal with people all day, suspects in this, complainants in that, situations that range from "my neighbor told me he killed somebody" to, "I left my iPhone on the trunk of my car when it was towed, it fell off on the 51, can you guys go look and see if you can find it?" ( that was an actual call by the way ), LE is more than prepared to deal with / and or look for shoplifters.

Nonsense! And this incident proves my point. These cops couldn't tell a shoplifter from a grand pa protecting his grandson. They read the entire situation wrongly and hurt an innocent civilian in the process. Some training! LOL! There will be a lawsuit and Buckeye will pay for this. What more needs to be said?

[TBCasino]

Originally Posted by nightnurse613

When someone comes up from behind you and grabs your hands your first instinct is to resist.

Yes, and then you turn around and see two people in uniform, and here comes the $10,000 question. What would you do?

Remember the protesters sitting on the ground when the police had told them to move and the pepper spray came out? Resisting arrest (or a lawful order)-it's lucky they didn't get shot when the protestors took their hands out to wipe their eyes.

I can't speak unequivocally for every agency ( unlike many of the posters here, who apparently know what happened before the smart phones started rolling ), but I can speak from personal experience. If you suspect armed resistance, you don't show up with pepper spray as your first go to option.

[TBCasino]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Nonsense! And this incident proves my point. These cops couldn't tell a shoplifter from a grand pa protecting his grandson. They read the entire situation wrongly and hurt an innocent civilian in the process. Some training! LOL! As for criminal charges, the cops always try to tack on unjustified charges. It is their MO. All of them will all be dropped. There will be a lawsuit and Buckeye will pay for this. What more needs to be said?

How do you know he wasn't a shoplifter? Do you have proof, aside from his statements? The Baseline Killer has a bunch of excuses as well, you believe him too? What's wrong with waiting for the facts to come out?

You have no idea what happened before the cameras started rolling, do you? If so, please let us in what is clearly obvious to you. Let's hear it.

and since you know so much about training, I'd be more than happy for you to let me know what is good training in the LE arena. I'm serious about this too, let's hear it.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by TBCasino

How do you know he wasn't a shoplifter? Do you have proof, aside from his statements? The Baseline Killer has a bunch of excuses as well, you believe him too? What's wrong with waiting for the facts to come out?

You have no idea what happened before the cameras started rolling, do you? If so, please let us in what is clearly obvious to you. Let's hear it.

and since you know so much about training, I'd be more than happy for you to let me know what is good training in the LE arena. I'm serious about this too, let's hear it.

There again, that is my point. This was not an LE situation until the police made it one. A guy put an item in his waistband from what the reports say. That is not shoplifting. There could be other circumstances that would explain his doing that. Knowing how to recognize shoplifters, their behavior and mannerisms is not something that LE does. They do the paperwork when the store security (and I don't mean guards; every Walmart is loaded with cameras and staffed with people at the screens and in the aisles trained to look for shoplifters) catches someone. Like other people have said, it is rare, rare indeed that store security would stop someone who was not in the act of leaving the store. Most people don't even know it is illegal to "conceal" something while in the store. Lack of training, plain and simple on the part of the cops.

Actually, I am being pretty charitable in my assessment of the police. I am attributing it to lack of training in the situation they were in. Many others might see it as a couple punks with a badge over-reaching their authority and beating up on an innocent civilian. That is pretty much the way the eye witnesses saw it.

[steel7]

Originally Posted by Bondurant

These police officers should be fired.

They wont be fired. Its not easy to fire a public servant esp a cop & fireman. Many people put them one step below the creator of heaven & earth. Go figure.

[TBCasino]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

There again, that is my point. This was not an LE situation until the police made it one. A guy put an item in his waistband from what the reports say. That is not shoplifting. There could be other circumstances that would explain his doing that. Knowing how to recognize shoplifters, their behavior and mannerisms is not something that LE does. They do the paperwork when the store security (and I don't mean guards; every Walmart is loaded with cameras and staffed with people at the screens and in the aisles trained to look for shoplifters) catches someone. Like other people have said, it is rare, rare indeed that store security would stop someone who was not in the act of leaving the store. Most people don't even know it is illegal to "conceal" something while in the store. Lack of training, plain and simple on the part of the cops.

Actually, I am being pretty charitable in my assessment of the police. I am attributing it to lack of training in the situation they were in. Many others might see it as a couple punks with a badge over-reaching their authority and beating up on an innocent civilian. That is pretty much the way the eye witnesses saw it.

I'll reiterate my question to you, what do you actually know about their proprietary guard training? You know why I make it a point to mention "proprietary"? Because in AZ, proprietary guards ( like the guards at Walmart ) require no training, yes, you read that correctly, NO TRAINING. Ask me how I know..

I'll ask you again...

How do you know he wasn't a shoplifter? Do you have proof, aside from his statements? The Baseline Killer has a bunch of excuses as well, you believe him too? What's wrong with waiting for the facts to come out?

You have no idea what happened before the cameras started rolling, do you? If so, please let us in what is clearly obvious to you. Let's hear it.

and since you know so much about training, I'd be more than happy for you to let me know what is good training in the LE arena. I'm serious about this too, let's hear it.

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