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Location: The edge of the world and all of Western civilization
984 posts, read 1,195,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
Not at all, I put this quote in quotation marks and provided you with a link that you clearly ignored.
It is very clear you don't like Phoenix and it's also clear you don't know a whole lot about it. But hey, Chicago is looking for people as the city is shrinking again, so you should be able to find a place there rather easily. Best of luck to you!
I did look back, and no, you did not use quotation marks around the line in question. And to the emboldened part, don't be so sure... you don't really know me, after all. I do know when someone has on rose-colored glasses though, and you won't see the city's problems. I've been in similar situations, when I was younger, in which I didn't want to see things for the way they really are because I was happy (and looking back, at the time I was also ignorant). If you don't want to aspire for better, that's your problem.
A few ASU awards and rankings:
#1 in the U.S. for innovation
Top 10 in the U.S. for employ-ability
#1 public university chosen by international students
#5 in the nation for producing the best-qualified graduates
#15 executive education in the world
All true, and I think Phoenix is improving in terms of becoming a tech center, but in a way, it's always like that. Downtown is always improving, the tech economy is always improving, yet it doesn't *feel* like it.
I feel like part of the problem is the sprawl and, weirdly, the monotonous weather. And I know that can't just be it - Los Angeles, Atlanta, they sprawl more and yet feel more cohesive - but it feels like a lot of people move to Phoenix because they can have a large cheap home and nice weather compared to where they came from and that's about it. And all those homes look vaguely the same, and all the shopping centers on the corners look vaguely the same, so there's this sense, I think, of just people driving from their nice home to places to buy things for their nice home, to a restaurant or park, and then back to their nice home.
In places like Chicago, there's a sense of business and art and culture being part of the package of the city. I know it's there in Phoenix - there's businesses, and a great art museum, and western culture and great hiking. Yet there's an odd feel in Phoenix that it doesn't quite register like it does in Chicago. It's not even a western feeling because I feel like other western cities - Denver, Los Angeles, San Diego - have more of a city feel. I've never been quite able to put my finger on why it feels that way, but I know others who feel the same about the city.
And it's not that there's anything wrong with that - I lament the housing costs in the city I live as compared to Phoenix. Yet here feels more like a "city".
In places like Chicago, there's a sense of business and art and culture being part of the package of the city. I know it's there in Phoenix - there's businesses, and a great art museum, and western culture and great hiking. Yet there's an odd feel in Phoenix that it doesn't quite register like it does in Chicago. It's not even a western feeling because I feel like other western cities - Denver, Los Angeles, San Diego - have more of a city feel. I've never been quite able to put my finger on why it feels that way, but I know others who feel the same about the city.
And it's not that there's anything wrong with that - I lament the housing costs in the city I live as compared to Phoenix. Yet here feels more like a "city".
Well when you tend to be physically sprawled out across a wide landmass in a desert you tend to lack an "urban" feel. Which isn't bad as there are people who don't want to live in an urban, dense environment yet want to be close to the "action".
Well when you tend to be physically sprawled out across a wide landmass in a desert you tend to lack an "urban" feel. Which isn't bad as there are people who don't want to live in an urban, dense environment yet want to be close to the "action".
Right, but I think it's preventing Phoenix from being more cohesive and moving forward as a city. If the activities in Scottsdale, the businesses and theater of Tempe, the bars, sports, and restaurants of downtown and uptown Phoenix and the community feel of Glendale were all closer together, along with the desert environment, then I think Phoenix would actually be a very interesting place to live.
Somehow the fact that all of it is a 30 minute drive from everything else under 105 degree skies makes it difficult. I don't know how Phoenix corrects for that, if at all.
Right, but I think it's preventing Phoenix from being more cohesive and moving forward as a city. If the activities in Scottsdale, the businesses and theater of Tempe, the bars, sports, and restaurants of downtown and uptown Phoenix and the community feel of Glendale were all closer together, along with the desert environment, then I think Phoenix would actually be a very interesting place to live.
Somehow the fact that all of it is a 30 minute drive from everything else under 105 degree skies makes it difficult. I don't know how Phoenix corrects for that, if at all.
Good points. The problem with all the sprawl is it has allowed Phoenix and some of the surrounding suburbs to annex so much land that it creates hit & miss development. I believe if the Phoenix city limits were halted at most of the mountain preserves, it would have allowed the areas on the other side of the mountains (Paradise Valley Village, Deer Valley, Ahwatukee, etc.) to become their own separate communities. This could have allowed Phoenix to become more compressed, leading to greater density ... and best of all, a reduced government. The way it is now, the Phoenix city government is too oversized & bureaucratic by having to serve such a large land mass. I'd rather have smaller, downsized government, even it means deannexing some land & letting those areas incorporate on their own & create their own municipal governments.
Good points. The problem with all the sprawl is it has allowed Phoenix and some of the surrounding suburbs to annex so much land that it creates hit & miss development. I believe if the Phoenix city limits were halted at most of the mountain preserves, it would have allowed the areas on the other side of the mountains (Paradise Valley Village, Deer Valley, Ahwatukee, etc.) to become their own separate communities. This could have allowed Phoenix to become more compressed, leading to greater density ... and best of all, a reduced government. The way it is now, the Phoenix city government is too oversized & bureaucratic by having to serve such a large land mass. I'd rather have smaller, downsized government, even it means deannexing some land & letting those areas incorporate on their own & create their own municipal governments.
Agreed, though I think Greg Stanton is actually doing a very good job with what he has to work with.
Right, but I think it's preventing Phoenix from being more cohesive and moving forward as a city. If the activities in Scottsdale, the businesses and theater of Tempe, the bars, sports, and restaurants of downtown and uptown Phoenix and the community feel of Glendale were all closer together, along with the desert environment, then I think Phoenix would actually be a very interesting place to live.
Somehow the fact that all of it is a 30 minute drive from everything else under 105 degree skies makes it difficult. I don't know how Phoenix corrects for that, if at all.
Im not sure what city doesn't have this same thing going on. LA has downtown, Koreatown, Hollywood, and the beach cities of Venice, Santa Monica etc... all are quite spread out and can actually take much longer to navigate between.
Chicago has a lot more downtown but still both baseball parks are not in the main core and it's a very big core at that, walking from one side to the other can be a daunting task, the trains are nice but can be quite inconvenient depending on where you're coming and going to.
Denver is pretty compact but if you're going to a soccer game, the tech center or cherry creek for an event or work, then you're also commuting around one way or another.
Downtown Phoenix has certainly sustained a lot of neglect over the years and due to Phoenix being much younger then most it never got as built up as older cities, but it's thriving today like no other time I've seen. You don't need to leave the city for art, shows, music, education or museums. You can if you want but it's not necessary.
As far as Phoenix not moving forward as a city, what is the expectation? They're building thousands of residential units that seem to be filling up at a record pace, we host one of the largest art walks in the country every month, the warehouse district is being renovated and new tenants are announced regularly, several companies have announced late new offices in the downtown core, live music venues are now all over the place and seem to be thriving as more like the Van Buren are coming soon. Locally owned business like the Grand codeee shop, Angels Trumpet Ale House and countless others are opening. A full fledged grocery store is under construction now, 4 new hotels have opened with a 4th under construction now. A second brewery is about to open, the AZ Center is undergoing a massive facelift and considering what would be the states largest residential tower. There are 4 other towers proposed and at various stages of development. You've got broadway, the symphony, Valley Youth Theater, several small local preforming art centers and a ton of large venues with big shows and pro sports.
I find Phoenix to be pretty entertaining and the 20 minute train ride to Tempe isn't a big deal at all but other than the occasional ASU game or a show at Gammage or Marquee why would I need to go there or Scottsdale much?
I think you have, at best, a delusional grasp on Phoenix for reasons I pointed out in another thread. I don't agree with BIG CATS on almost anything, but I do on the point to which you are replying here. I moved here for a job that didn't work out, took a temp job, then moved to my current job... and in my experience, mediocrity seems to be the norm in Phoenix. I will admit that I've so far worked with only one person who has any amount of drive, and frankly I think his work ethic is admirable. But of the 50+ other people I've worked with since moving here, no, I don't see much ambition. In fact, that's a point of frustration for me because it feels like I'm around dead weight that drags me down when I have always taken a driven, aggressive approach to improving my situation.
If this weren't the case, I think Phoenix would have a much more diverse economy, a larger collection of better paying jobs, more room for job growth, etc. You don't have to look too deep in this forum to see people move here because they want what they perceive to be an easy way out. Furthermore, people move here and want to disconnect, so they don't often really care about what's happening to this town (hence why so many people on this thread seem more fixated on problems in where they used to live, not where they live now).
On top of that, I noticed that no one is really addressing some cautionary tidbits in that article...
But Stanton and Mackay both said the quality of Phoenix is more important than the number of people who live here. That means retaining people who grew up or were educated here, as well as sustaining the growth..."We're still deciding what we want to be when we grow up," [Stanton] said.
Quality is a tremendous issue in Phoenix, and it faces a lot of hurdles which are only going to be harder to overcome. Retaining and sustaining are both telling issues no one else seems to acknowledge: New York and Philadelphia are the only two cities to remain in the top 10 most populous cities since the first census in 1790, whereas many have appeared on and fallen off it as times/trends change. Phoenix making this list is no different than the few dozen others to have once been on that list—what matters is what it does now. That last statement might be tongue-in-cheek, but for a city this size, that's not really something to brag about. One would hope Phoenix would have a better understanding of what it's going to do with itself, but hence my pessimism. I think Phoenix is currently, and has been for some time, bringing in a lot of people who really just don't care, and that's going to show in time.
Great post. It's great to see something I mentioned in another thread about Phoenix being more concerned about quantity and not quality in quotes here. haha The problem is that many people in Phoenix can't begin to understand what is being said here.
You can throw every statistic you want at me (many of those you chose being irrelevant in this case), but it doesn't change the fact that many people moving here aren't really that motivated in life. How often do you read on this forum people wanting to move for intellectual and cultural stimulation, wanting to make it big, desiring the creative energy and brisk pace, etc.? You don't. Ever. Pretty much every new post is "I'm tired of the cold" and/or "it's too expensive where I live". I think you have a knee-jerk reaction to a lot of news (hence the articles you posted and your fanfare for bragging rights of being a place with more people). A lot of issues in Phoenix are building up, yet are latent at this time, including population growth and the general demographic of newcomers, and depending on how much longer you have left in the world, you'll probably see them hit full force in the future.
Phoenix is going to be easier to build wealth when it's cheap. That's just common sense. And as to young professionals, the mayor even stated the city needs to focus on citizen retention, specifically people being educated here who want to leave. You also did a wonderful job of posting fluff pieces (as I've stated before, lists are marketing techniques to hook people into reading), some of which are a few years old. I don't know how companies moving here suddenly means people in Phoenix are a motivated, ambitious bunch. From what I've heard, this attribute could be applied to a lot of cities in Florida, yet jobs still open up there. I work for a Fortune 500 company and the pay could be better, but opportunities within the company aren't great.
And speaking of statistics, here's what I posted in another thread that went ignored and backs up everything you've been saying all along:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdurbanite
For starters, Phx has always been a lower tier city when compared to its peers, which says a lot if you ask me. Quantity over quality is a great way to describe it.
Average median households incomes are among the lowest:
On the other hand, Phoenix actually packs a decent punch. Compare us to San Diego for example, quite a bit more economic activity here then there, despite SD being in a really nice location weather wise. We have 15 Fortune 1000's, it was 16 before Petsmart went private for restructuing. ithis puts us around the same levels as Seattle, Denver, Miami, Charlotte, St. Louis, Cleveland, and so on. Are these cities you'd also consider quiet with not much of an economy?
Haha...What are you talking about? Phoenix punches below its weight in nearly all categories that matter. All you have to do is look at the peer metros with similar statistics as Phoenix like Tampa, Las Vegas, San Antonio, Miami and Orlando to see what I'm talking about. None of those places excel in anything, either.
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