Is Phoenix being overdeveloped? (Tucson, Flagstaff: 2014, rent, home)
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Dallas and Denver have a western/cowboy image in their history as well, but it's not part of the general culture or everyday life in those cities anymore either.
Yeah, it's not like they try to project an image of a Cowboy riding a Bronco while trying to lasso a Buffalo, Long Horn or Maverick.
We lost the so called cowboy culture a long time ago, and in some ways it has already become like L.A. east. My point always has been that Phoenix is a large city/metro region with all the big city problems that go along with it: crime, traffic, pollution, etc. It would be great if we could offset those things with more of the positive aspects of a large city, such as the better jobs with competitive wages, and more amenities that attract people from around the nation & the world (other than hiking, golfing, and sunbathing).
I see Phoenix as having great potential to be a world class city, and this means not trying to be like it was in the past. We can definitely have the cowboy/southwestern culture as part of our history, but attempting to bring it back as a way of being "unique" can be somewhat of a detriment to the kind of people we want to attract more of. Dallas and Denver have a western/cowboy image in their history as well, but it's not part of the general culture or everyday life in those cities anymore either.
Not sure what you’re getting it’s? You don’t think the 16 fortune 1000 HQs and many others with regional HQs count as better jobs? Do you think you’d find the equivalent in a town like Missoula or Wichita? You act like we don’t have any good jobs here yet every other post on this very forum is someone moving here for a job.
Our economy is bigger, more diverse and attracting high wage jobs like never before. I don’t see where the complaining is stemming from in the least.
Not sure what you’re getting it’s? You don’t think the 16 fortune 1000 HQs and many others with regional HQs count as better jobs? Do you think you’d find the equivalent in a town like Missoula or Wichita? You act like we don’t have any good jobs here yet every other post on this very forum is someone moving here for a job.
Our economy is bigger, more diverse and attracting high wage jobs like never before. I don’t see where the complaining is stemming from in the least.
Sure, our economy is growing nicely, but a lot of that is reflective of the current national economy. Do you seriously believe the Phoenix economy won't suffer should another major downturn happen like the one in 2008? As for the 16 Fortune 1,000 firms that are based here: that's all well & good, and it's definitely better than nothing, but 16 is rather paltry compared to the 42 Fortune 1,000 companies in Dallas, and 30 in Philadelphia. Also, many of those 16 companies aren't even in the city of Phoenix, and are housed in suburban office parks instead of downtown where they should be! We might be the nation's 5th largest city, but we don't have a whole lot to show for it.
Sure, our economy is growing nicely, but a lot of that is reflective of the current national economy. Do you seriously believe the Phoenix economy won't suffer should another major downturn happen like the one in 2008? As for the 16 Fortune 1,000 firms that are based here: that's all well & good, and it's definitely better than nothing, but 16 is rather paltry compared to the 42 Fortune 1,000 companies in Dallas, and 30 in Philadelphia. Also, many of those 16 companies aren't even in the city of Phoenix, and are housed in suburban office parks instead of downtown where they should be! We might be the nation's 5th largest city, but we don't have a whole lot to show for it.
Hate to break it to you but the trends towards suburban offices for many large companies has been going strong for decades now and it’s not unique to here.
Look at just the top 10, less than half are in buildings that qualify as highrises. Investors aren’t looking for flashy Highrise buildings these days they want to see profits and that’s about it.
Exxon Mobile- suburban campus
Wal-Mart- suburban campus
Berkshire- 11 story building in Omaha
Apple- Suburban campus in Cupertino
United Health Group- Suburban Minneapolis campus
McKesson- Highrise in San Francisco
CVS Health- Suburban campus in Woonsocket RI
Amazon- Urban campus in Seattle
ATT- Highrise in downtown Dallas
GM- Highrise downtown Detroit
Will Phoenix suffer if another major downturn happens? Of course, what city didn’t? Will we suffer as bad as 2008 if another real estate crash occurs? No way. In 2005, 2006 and 2007 we were building up to 60,000 new homes a year, many of which never saw a single person move in until years later. Now we’re building 10%-20% of that, our economy depends on growth but it’s not based on a fake real estate bubble today.
We’re the nations 13th largest metro, that’s the number that matters. You’re comparing to Dallas at 7.4 million in the metroplex and Philadelphia at 7.1 million. Those are both more than 50% larger than the Phoenix metro, don’t get too caught up in our city ranking it doesn’t represent the regional standing.
Also, like it or not we have a geographic disadvantage as well, look at LA, second largest metro and city yet less fortune 1000s than Dallas and Philadelphia too. For all the fame Seattle gets they have 2 more fortune 1000s than we do, and a few of the largest ones aren’t in the city of Seattle as well- Microsoft is in Redmond, Expedia is in Bellevue and Costco is in Issaquah.
If you want to get technical though Phoenix has Uhaul, Republic, Freeport McMoran, Apollo Group, Petsmart (private at the moment), Swift, APS (pinnacle west), and On Semiconductor within in the city limits.
Banner Health and Best Western would be others if they were public.
Hate to break it to you but the trends towards suburban offices for many large companies has been going strong for decades now and it’s not unique to here.
Look at just the top 10, less than half are in buildings that qualify as highrises. Investors aren’t looking for flashy Highrise buildings these days they want to see profits and that’s about it.
The smart investors go where the money and demand are. As of lately, there's a greater demand for more centralized, urban development, which is why you're seeing more vertical growth in central Phoenix and downtown Tempe. Suburban office campuses were the big thing prior to about 10 years ago ... however, the companies that still prefer these locations are only hurting themselves by limiting their workforce. A good example is Chase, which is going to move some jobs out of the Chase Tower next year to an office park in south Tempe. A fair share of people who work at the Chase Tower depend on mass transit, and prefer the eateries within walking distance for breakfast & lunch, but these things will be a lot more limited at the new location.
Think about it: what kind of sense does it make for somebody who lives in central Phoenix to have to drive out to an office park in south Tempe or Chandler for work? Or say somebody in Avondale got a job offer at GoDaddy in north Scottsdale. The commute would be horrible, much more so than a commute to the downtown area. Plus, having large companies in a suburban location only adds more traffic congestion to the suburbs, which are supposed to be quieter & have less traffic. Most people have found out that the traditional way works best: have the major businesses downtown, and reserve the suburbs for single family residential.
Quote:
Originally Posted by locolife
Exxon Mobile- suburban campus
Wal-Mart- suburban campus
Berkshire- 11 story building in Omaha
Apple- Suburban campus in Cupertino
United Health Group- Suburban Minneapolis campus
McKesson- Highrise in San Francisco
CVS Health- Suburban campus in Woonsocket RI
Amazon- Urban campus in Seattle
ATT- Highrise in downtown Dallas
GM- Highrise downtown Detroit
You only included a few examples ... and you really shouldn't include WalMart in that list because even though it's a major company, it is headquartered in a relatively small town where highrises would likely not be welcome. What about the other cities which have added skyscrapers in recent years?
* Los Angeles: 1,100 foot Wilshire Grand (a mixed used development) completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Oklahoma City: 844 foot Devon Center completed in 2012, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Philadelphia: 1,121 foot Comcast Center completed in 2018, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Austin: 683 foot Austonian (residential building) completed in 2018, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* San Francisco: 1,070 foot Salesforce Tower completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Miami: 868 foot Panorama Tower completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
And Phoenix: 483 foot Chase Tower finished in 1973, and no plans for any other taller highrise in the near future. When you consider how many other cities smaller than us have added significant height in recent years, this is pretty lame. It's great that you promote Phoenix's progress in a positive light, but sometimes it comes across as overkill instead of realistic.
If you want Phoenix to be similarly like Dubai with the tall skyscrapers, then just say so. There's nothing wrong with that, and would actually like to see it happen.
The smart investors go where the money and demand are. As of lately, there's a greater demand for more centralized, urban development, which is why you're seeing more vertical growth in central Phoenix and downtown Tempe. Suburban office campuses were the big thing prior to about 10 years ago ... however, the companies that still prefer these locations are only hurting themselves by limiting their workforce. A good example is Chase, which is going to move some jobs out of the Chase Tower next year to an office park in south Tempe. A fair share of people who work at the Chase Tower depend on mass transit, and prefer the eateries within walking distance for breakfast & lunch, but these things will be a lot more limited at the new location.
Think about it: what kind of sense does it make for somebody who lives in central Phoenix to have to drive out to an office park in south Tempe or Chandler for work? Or say somebody in Avondale got a job offer at GoDaddy in north Scottsdale. The commute would be horrible, much more so than a commute to the downtown area. Plus, having large companies in a suburban location only adds more traffic congestion to the suburbs, which are supposed to be quieter & have less traffic. Most people have found out that the traditional way works best: have the major businesses downtown, and reserve the suburbs for single family residential.
You only included a few examples ... and you really shouldn't include WalMart in that list because even though it's a major company, it is headquartered in a relatively small town where highrises would likely not be welcome. What about the other cities which have added skyscrapers in recent years?
* Los Angeles: 1,100 foot Wilshire Grand (a mixed used development) completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Oklahoma City: 844 foot Devon Center completed in 2012, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Philadelphia: 1,121 foot Comcast Center completed in 2018, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Austin: 683 foot Austonian (residential building) completed in 2018, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* San Francisco: 1,070 foot Salesforce Tower completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Miami: 868 foot Panorama Tower completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
And Phoenix: 483 foot Chase Tower finished in 1973, and no plans for any other taller highrise in the near future. When you consider how many other cities smaller than us have added significant height in recent years, this is pretty lame. It's great that you promote Phoenix's progress in a positive light, but sometimes it comes across as overkill instead of realistic.
If you want to build a new tallest I won’t complain, I’m all for a denser core, but I don’t care enough to move somewhere just for tall buildings. I did feel that way at one point and tried a big east coast city and within a few years realized it really didn’t impact me much day to day nor did tall buildings translate into a vibrant urban core.
So what do you care about tall buildings or Fortune HQs? Of 6 tallest buildings how many are for Fortune HQs? One?
I think any of us with an extended life in Phoenix know downtown was not a focus for several decades, it’s now coming up but surely lacks what other older downtowns have built by now. But we’re on a decent track now and hopefully that momentum sticks and we’ll see more energy, people and jobs enter the city core.
As for Chase moving jobs to south Tempe, they probably researched it and found it made more sense for their employees and likely their lease payment as well. Quicken recently moved jobs from a suburban campus to downtown so it goes both ways.
Phoenix does not have the industry to warrant an office building taller than Chase. That is a real reflection of the state of our skilled/white collar economy. No one needs a 1000 foot building for a call center or a distribution facility.
Not sure what you’re getting it’s? You don’t think the 16 fortune 1000 HQs and many others with regional HQs count as better jobs? Do you think you’d find the equivalent in a town like Missoula or Wichita? You act like we don’t have any good jobs here yet every other post on this very forum is someone moving here for a job.
Our economy is bigger, more diverse and attracting high wage jobs like never before. I don’t see where the complaining is stemming from in the least.
1. PetSmart
2. Circle K
2. Republic Services
3. US Airways Inc
4. ON Semiconductor
5. Freeport-McMoRan
6. Apollo Education Group
7. Amkor Technology
8. Sprouts Farmers Market
9. Swift Transportation
1. Banner Health
2. Walmart
3. Kroger
4. McDonalds
5. Wells Fargo
6. Albertsons
7. Honor Health
8. Intel
9. Dignity Health
10. Chase
In conclusion, there are a lot of lower paying jobs on the list. But according to this survey, AZ is ranked #7 as the most diverse economy in the USA. https://www.gobankingrates.com/makin...rse-states/#51 For whatever reason, states like MA, WA, MN, CA, TX and CO have much higher incomes even though their economies are less diverse.
The smart investors go where the money and demand are. As of lately, there's a greater demand for more centralized, urban development, which is why you're seeing more vertical growth in central Phoenix and downtown Tempe. Suburban office campuses were the big thing prior to about 10 years ago ... however, the companies that still prefer these locations are only hurting themselves by limiting their workforce. A good example is Chase, which is going to move some jobs out of the Chase Tower next year to an office park in south Tempe. A fair share of people who work at the Chase Tower depend on mass transit, and prefer the eateries within walking distance for breakfast & lunch, but these things will be a lot more limited at the new location.
Think about it: what kind of sense does it make for somebody who lives in central Phoenix to have to drive out to an office park in south Tempe or Chandler for work? Or say somebody in Avondale got a job offer at GoDaddy in north Scottsdale. The commute would be horrible, much more so than a commute to the downtown area. Plus, having large companies in a suburban location only adds more traffic congestion to the suburbs, which are supposed to be quieter & have less traffic. Most people have found out that the traditional way works best: have the major businesses downtown, and reserve the suburbs for single family residential.
You only included a few examples ... and you really shouldn't include WalMart in that list because even though it's a major company, it is headquartered in a relatively small town where highrises would likely not be welcome. What about the other cities which have added skyscrapers in recent years?
* Los Angeles: 1,100 foot Wilshire Grand (a mixed used development) completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Oklahoma City: 844 foot Devon Center completed in 2012, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Philadelphia: 1,121 foot Comcast Center completed in 2018, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Austin: 683 foot Austonian (residential building) completed in 2018, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* San Francisco: 1,070 foot Salesforce Tower completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
* Miami: 868 foot Panorama Tower completed in 2017, which is now the tallest structure in that city.
And Phoenix: 483 foot Chase Tower finished in 1973, and no plans for any other taller highrise in the near future. When you consider how many other cities smaller than us have added significant height in recent years, this is pretty lame. It's great that you promote Phoenix's progress in a positive light, but sometimes it comes across as overkill instead of realistic.
I've often wondered what it would be like if we gobbled up all of the hotel rooms in the valley and stuck them near or in downtown. I'm pretty sure we'd see some height improvements downtown as a result. Of course that would look quite ridiculous with a bunch of golf courses downtown which obviously would not work since theses resorts are located where they are for a reason. However, having many of those rooms downtown rather than scattered around Scottsdale among other places in the valley would add vibrancy downtown and possibly have an impact on whether or not companies decided to locate downtown. I think the hotel/resort situation in the valley does have an impact on how our downtown looks and that piece of the puzzle is often ignored.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
