Is Phoenix being overdeveloped? (crime, to live, price)

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by yukon

I think a big part of why Phoenix metro has grown out instead of up is that people move to the west for wide open spaces. You build up, you lose that feeling and things start to feel closed in. You feel like you've lost part of your personal space. While some may like an urban jungle like NYC, others still want to be able to see the horizon.

Still doesn't explain why other cities in the West have grown upward: San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Denver, and even L.A. and San Diego. Building upward can actually preserve more of those wide open spaces once you leave the city environs ... whereas building outward just extends the city, the development, the traffic, and the urban heat island out into those cherished wide open spaces.

It's really a very simple concept: a large city should be dense with tall structures, most suburbs should be lower density and somewhat quieter, and rural areas should be the places where one can have more personal spaces. Makes no sense why anybody would want to move to the nation's 5th largest city and expect to have open spaces. They'd be better off living somewhere like Wickenburg, Parker, or Payson.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

Still doesn't explain why other cities in the West have grown upward: San Francisco, Seattle, Portland, Denver, and even L.A. and San Diego. Building upward can actually preserve more of those wide open spaces once you leave the city environs ... whereas building outward just extends the city, the development, the traffic, and the urban heat island out into those cherished wide open spaces.

It's really a very simple concept: a large city should be dense with tall structures, most suburbs should be lower density and somewhat quieter, and rural areas should be the places where one can have more personal spaces. Makes no sense why anybody would want to move to the nation's 5th largest city and expect to have open spaces. They'd be better off living somewhere like Wickenburg, Parker, or Payson.

Compared to east coast cities of similar sizes these cities haven’t grown up and are incredibly sprawled.

Only San Francisco and Seattle have dencities that are anything comparable to east coast cities because of geographic constraints and being developed before cars. have you ever Ben to the south Bay or out in walnut creek? **** it could be Scottsdale or east Mesa

The car, like all transportation effects where and how people can live. Seattle and San Francisco (even Denver) were decent sized towns in the 1800’s

Phoenix was a scattering if farm towns until the 1960’s or later. We had an economic development and growth pattern closer to the Central Valley of California or Dallas more than the deep water ports of San Francisco or Seattle.

And anyone who claims LA is dense is crazy LA’s downtown wasn’t much bigger than our own until 20 years ago, and LA is 5x larger of a metro than us. Most of la looks like Phoenix and it’s suburbs look like ours.

This kind of stuff isn’t arbitrary, cities are a reflection of technological, economic and political forces and how those things allow for, or constrain how a city must be.

Phoenix will never be like Boston or New York, we weren’t founded centuries ago, I don’t know what it will be, but it won’t be that

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Compared to east coast cities of similar sizes these cities haven’t grown up and are incredibly sprawled.

Only San Francisco and Seattle have dencities that are anything comparable to east coast cities because of geographic constraints and being developed before cars. have you ever Ben to the south Bay or out in walnut creek? **** it could be Scottsdale or east Mesa

I agree. San Jose is a good example of a place that has mushroomed in growth, and is now the nation's 10th largest city. It was once considered just a distant suburb of San Francisco, but it became what it is today largely because of its own definitive industry. But San Jose still has a tiny downtown area for its size, and it's mainly because much of that tech industry is scattered throughout the area in office parks. Also, it's still overshadowed by San Francisco in many ways, despite San Jose actually being the larger city (population wise).

Originally Posted by Obadno

The car, like all transportation effects where and how people can live. Seattle and San Francisco (even Denver) were decent sized towns in the 1800’s

Phoenix was a scattering if farm towns until the 1960’s or later. We had an economic development and growth pattern closer to the Central Valley of California or Dallas more than the deep water ports of San Francisco or Seattle.

And anyone who claims LA is dense is crazy LA’s downtown wasn’t much bigger than our own until 20 years ago, and LA is 5x larger of a metro than us. Most of la looks like Phoenix and it’s suburbs look like ours.

This kind of stuff isn’t arbitrary, cities are a reflection of technological, economic and political forces and how those things allow for, or constrain how a city must be.

You're absolutely right, but downtown L.A. has recently become taller, denser, and more active than it was 20+ years ago. There's very little resemblance between central L.A. and central Phoenix these days. One big reason for this is L.A. ran out of room to grow outward, and had no choice but to use infill & upward development methods in order to continue to grow. The only parts of the L.A. area which resemble Phoenix are Orange County, sections of the Inland Empire, and a few areas in the San Fernando Valley.

Originally Posted by Obadno

Phoenix will never be like Boston or New York, we weren’t founded centuries ago, I don’t know what it will be, but it won’t be that

No, Phoenix will never be like the dense eastern cities, and I don't think most of us want it to go that direction. You mentioned that we had a growth pattern similar to Dallas, which is somewhat true, but have you seen downtown Dallas lately, and Houston too? Both cities have very definitive skylines which Phoenix is lacking. In fact, Phoenix's skyline resembles Fort Worth's more than Dallas or Houston. See, this is what I mean: Both Houston & Dallas are vastly sprawling metro areas, but they also have large, dense, tall downtowns. It seems to be a big deal when a 20 story building is under construction in Phoenix, but it's nothing in most other large U.S. cities, regardless of geographic location.

[DougStark]

Please don't wish downtown Phoenix was more like downtown Los Angeles.

Haven't you heard about the thousands of homeless (bums) camping out on the side walks in LA? And then there's the used needles, human waste, etc. It's very sad to see what not enforcing laws results in. (ditto for all the other lefty-wacko west coast cities--SF, Portland, Seattle.)

[the topper]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

I agree. San Jose is a good example of a place that has mushroomed in growth, and is now the nation's 10th largest city. It was once considered just a distant suburb of San Francisco, but it became what it is today largely because of its own definitive industry. But San Jose still has a tiny downtown area for its size, and it's mainly because much of that tech industry is scattered throughout the area in office parks. Also, it's still overshadowed by San Francisco in many ways, despite San Jose actually being the larger city (population wise).



You're absolutely right, but downtown L.A. has recently become taller, denser, and more active than it was 20+ years ago. There's very little resemblance between central L.A. and central Phoenix these days. One big reason for this is L.A. ran out of room to grow outward, and had no choice but to use infill & upward development methods in order to continue to grow. The only parts of the L.A. area which resemble Phoenix are Orange County, sections of the Inland Empire, and a few areas in the San Fernando Valley.



No, Phoenix will never be like the dense eastern cities, and I don't think most of us want it to go that direction. You mentioned that we had a growth pattern similar to Dallas, which is somewhat true, but have you seen downtown Dallas lately, and Houston too? Both cities have very definitive skylines which Phoenix is lacking. In fact, Phoenix's skyline resembles Fort Worth's more than Dallas or Houston. See, this is what I mean: Both Houston & Dallas are vastly sprawling metro areas, but they also have large, dense, tall downtowns. It seems to be a big deal when a 20 story building is under construction in Phoenix, but it's nothing in most other large U.S. cities, regardless of geographic location.

Correction: San Jose has major and active downtown that compliment the city. You're talking about a world class city compared to a vastly hollowed out suburban city that is failing to revive its downtown

[yukon]

Originally Posted by Valley Native

No, Phoenix will never be like the dense eastern cities, and I don't think most of us want it to go that direction. You mentioned that we had a growth pattern similar to Dallas, which is somewhat true, but have you seen downtown Dallas lately, and Houston too? Both cities have very definitive skylines which Phoenix is lacking. In fact, Phoenix's skyline resembles Fort Worth's more than Dallas or Houston. See, this is what I mean: Both Houston & Dallas are vastly sprawling metro areas, but they also have large, dense, tall downtowns. It seems to be a big deal when a 20 story building is under construction in Phoenix, but it's nothing in most other large U.S. cities, regardless of geographic location.

That's because most of the buildings in downtown Dallas are twice the height of the tallest building in Phoenix. Our tallest building is what, 40 stories? That's nothing compared to other major metros.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by the topper

Correction: San Jose has major and active downtown that compliment the city. You're talking about a world class city compared to a vastly hollowed out suburban city that is failing to revive its downtown

Are you saying phoenix is failing at its downtown revitalization? Because in a relative assessment the improvement of Downtown Phoenix from literally nothing to an actual downtown over the last decade is nothing short of incredible.

[Obadno]

Originally Posted by yukon

That's because most of the buildings in downtown Dallas are twice the height of the tallest building in Phoenix. Our tallest building is what, 40 stories? That's nothing compared to other major metros.

Height is irrelevant, DC doesn't have crazy height, Boston doesn't have crazy height, few European cities have height.

Height means nothing, the magic of an urban city happens in the first few floors. I would take a busy downtown of 10 story buildings over a Houston or Dallas or Phoenix with 9 to 5 vertical office parks and mega-blocks

[Howest2008]

Originally Posted by Obadno

Compared to east coast cities of similar sizes these cities haven’t grown up and are incredibly sprawled.

Only San Francisco and Seattle have dencities that are anything comparable to east coast cities because of geographic constraints and being developed before cars. have you ever Ben to the south Bay or out in walnut creek? **** it could be Scottsdale or east Mesa

The car, like all transportation effects where and how people can live. Seattle and San Francisco (even Denver) were decent sized towns in the 1800’s

Phoenix was a scattering if farm towns until the 1960’s or later. We had an economic development and growth pattern closer to the Central Valley of California or Dallas more than the deep water ports of San Francisco or Seattle.

And anyone who claims LA is dense is crazy LA’s downtown wasn’t much bigger than our own until 20 years ago, and LA is 5x larger of a metro than us. Most of la looks like Phoenix and it’s suburbs look like ours.

This kind of stuff isn’t arbitrary, cities are a reflection of technological, economic and political forces and how those things allow for, or constrain how a city must be.

Phoenix will never be like Boston or New York, we weren’t founded centuries ago, I don’t know what it will be, but it won’t be that

Metro Los Angeles is denser than Metro New York City.

[Thomasaz]

Originally Posted by Burning Madolf

Unless you're doin the speculating.

I honestly wish I had the financial clout to get involved in the real estate boondoggle going on here.