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"But I can promise you. When states pay for college in 11th and 12th grade for advanced students, promoted History Day, charge less out of pocket extra curliculars, hiring better caliber teachers, etc we saw the results. Enough so that our kids have advanced degrees and are in the top 1% of wage earners. There is no chance that all happens by accident. "
I went to AZ schools from K-12 and ended up the same, advanced degree so on, did that happen by accident?
I don't think you understood my post. So I'll summarize. When you isolate the variables, all things being equal, you can deliver a better education when you spend more money if and only if you have motivated students. If you understand that THE highest-spending districts are the most troubled, then you can see why the results are skewed. Furthermore, if I want to prove that spending less gets better results, allow me to compare Catholic schools who spend the least amount of money to an intercity schools like Washington DC ($21,000 per student). https://patch.com/district-columbia/...-census-bureau If you want more statistical lies, I'll help you prove whatever you want.
Now if I want to believe that spending more doesn't matter, I'll leave in the outliers to "prove" your point. Do you see what I am saying?
"But I can promise you. When states pay for college in 11th and 12th grade for advanced students, promoted History Day, charge less out of pocket extra curliculars, hiring better caliber teachers, etc we saw the results. Enough so that our kids have advanced degrees and are in the top 1% of wage earners. There is no chance that all happens by accident. "
I went to AZ schools from K-12 and ended up the same, advanced degree so on, did that happen by accident?
I don't know anything about your situation. I never said AZ schools were terrible. But you probably "didn't end up the same". Though I'd be happy to prove to you via a PM that our son is a Rhodes and Marshall finalist. Just look at the pedigree of the winners and finalists. They all had an amazing education. I'm saying that it factually helped to have a well-funded district that had motivated teachers. He of course would have done amazing things in the #50th ranked school. He's brilliant. But not the same results. And yes, if he went to a "better" school, he would of had an even better education. Hence, if I spent more on ______ programs he would be higher performance. And the law of diminishing returns are alive an well.
There are some amazing schools in AZ. I'm not saying they are terrible. I'm saying like ANYTHING in life when you spend more, you can buy a better widget. If you spend more on employees, you can buy a better employee etc etc. OF COURSE there are outliers. So let's not go there...
Still, if the exclusive metric you measure for quality education is "test scores", then you are missing the big picture. Education is about creating a well-rounded person. We are off topic so I'll leave it at that. But we do agree that spending more for many students is an utter waste of funds. So I get your point. I'm not waving my hands in the air saying "spend spend spend" no matter what. I am saying that when motivated students have a better caliber education, they drag up the coasters in like.
Last edited by MN-Born-n-Raised; 08-29-2020 at 01:21 PM..
I feel like you may have lost objectivity on a topic when your retort for people who disagree with you is to suggest they shouldn't be posting on a given topic. Or the tried and true, "if you don't love it, leave it" argument. From your posts on other topics, I guess I expected a bit more.
Like you and others, I have traveled extensively around the US and 40 other countries. I think if you had completely free reign to choose where you would live, there are plenty of better options - be it climate, cost of living, culture, etc. - and plenty of those would not be in the US.
Does that mean Phoenix is terrible? Not at all. It's a decent compromise for lots of those. But it is hot, it is spread out, and the schools are by and large not great (not intended as an attack on the schools - they perform at or above the level to which they are funded). And the cheapest housing is likely to be an hour or more commute to downtown Phoenix (in rush hour).
And feigning objectivity when providing a biased response hardly lends you any credibility as well.
You are speaking to someone who has lived all over the United States and travels for a living working for a Fortune 500 company. I can choose to reside anywhere, and we have chosen Phoenix. The reason we like Phoenix is it has many large city amenities with a small town feel. I do not miss the traffic of the northeast or southern California. I do not miss the slums and large sections of the city being riddled with crime. There is truly no part of Phoenix that I'm afraid to drive through. I enjoy that most buildings and homes are relatively new with modern features. The roads and freeway systems are well designed. We have a wonderful airport that is easy to access and has a lot of amenities.
Yes, it does get hot here in the summer. What large city doesn't possess bad weather part of the year? The exceptions would be Los Angeles and San Diego. Outside of those cities, all cities have poor weather part of the year. For me, the heat is not pleasant but it isn't crippling. It doesn't prevent me from traveling. It doesn't close down establishments like schools or roads. The mornings and evenings are still quite pleasant. We enjoy going into our pool in the evenings and grilling out. Phoenix has no real inclement weather. We have no hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, snow storms, ice storms, flooding and other bad weather you see on the news.
The proximity to other cities is a bonus. To be able to get into my car and drive to LA, Las Vegas, San Diego and Rocky Point in a matter of hours during the summer months is a real plus.
I am also confused why people choose to continue to live here if they detest Phoenix so much? It does not really make a lot of sense. Why are you still living here if it's such a bad place. It really makes you question their credibility. There are many opinions regarding Phoenix but the data is there to support positive opinions regarding Phoenix. In the last 5 years, Phoenix was ranked #1 at one point for job growth, population growth and now new home buyers. That does not happen because people are ill informed and just move here. As much as you and others would like to imply, people do not just move here because they are ignorant. The reason you don't read more positive reviews is happy people in general do no post reviews on social media. In general, it is angry and unhappy people who feel the need to take time out of their day to criticize a place. Happy people rarely post online reviews unless they are prompted.
And feigning objectivity when providing a biased response hardly lends you any credibility as well.
You are speaking to someone who has lived all over the United States and travels for a living working for a Fortune 500 company. I can choose to reside anywhere, and we have chosen Phoenix. The reason we like Phoenix is it has many large city amenities with a small town feel. I do not miss the traffic of the northeast or southern California. I do not miss the slums and large sections of the city being riddled with crime. There is truly no part of Phoenix that I'm afraid to drive through. I enjoy that most buildings and homes are relatively new with modern features. The roads and freeway systems are well designed. We have a wonderful airport that is easy to access and has a lot of amenities.
Yes, it does get hot here in the summer. What large city doesn't possess bad weather part of the year? The exceptions would be Los Angeles and San Diego. Outside of those cities, all cities have poor weather part of the year. For me, the heat is not pleasant but it isn't crippling. It doesn't prevent me from traveling. It doesn't close down establishments like schools or roads. The mornings and evenings are still quite pleasant. We enjoy going into our pool in the evenings and grilling out. Phoenix has no real inclement weather. We have no hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, snow storms, ice storms, flooding and other bad weather you see on the news.
The proximity to other cities is a bonus. To be able to get into my car and drive to LA, Las Vegas, San Diego and Rocky Point in a matter of hours during the summer months is a real plus.
I am also confused why people choose to continue to live here if they detest Phoenix so much? It does not really make a lot of sense. Why are you still living here if it's such a bad place. It really makes you question their credibility. There are many opinions regarding Phoenix but the data is there to support positive opinions regarding Phoenix. In the last 5 years, Phoenix was ranked #1 at one point for job growth, population growth and now new home buyers. That does not happen because people are ill informed and just move here. As much as you and others would like to imply, people do not just move here because they are ignorant. The reason you don't read more positive reviews is happy people in general do no post reviews on social media. In general, it is angry and unhappy people who feel the need to take time out of their day to criticize a place. Happy people rarely post online reviews unless they are prompted.
One potential reason people might move here and then dislike it is that they get misleading information from internet forums like this. Pleasant evenings? It’s often still over 100 degrees at 11:00pm. Small town feel? Phoenix is a giant, massive unending sprawl of identical suburbia and strip malls that houses over 4 million people. Sounds like Mayberry. Proximity to other cities? LA is a 14 hour round trip drive through barren, hot, desolate desert. Sounds like something most average people will sign up for often. Oh and I’m sure the people who have had their cars swept away during our heavy monsoon and winter rains will be happy to know there isn’t actually any flooding here.
One potential reason people might move here and then dislike it is that they get misleading information from internet forums like this. Pleasant evenings? It’s often still over 100 degrees at 11:00pm. Small town feel? Phoenix is a giant, massive unending sprawl of identical suburbia and strip malls that houses over 4 million people. Sounds like Mayberry. Proximity to other cities? LA is a 14 hour round trip drive through barren, hot, desolate desert. Sounds like something most average people will sign up for often. Oh and I’m sure the people who have had their cars swept away during our heavy monsoon and winter rains will be happy to know there isn’t actually any flooding here.
Ok, time for a moment of levity here. I will agree there may be some information that could seem misleading as most of the information posted on these threads is subjective. However, anyone seriously considering a move here has the responsibility to at least do their own research and visit before relocating. For those unable to do so, they will have to take their chances. During June-August the temps definitely will most likely be over 100 degrees at night. However, mid-late September the temps start going down and October-March temps are quite pleasant. I agree, there is nothing small townish about Phoenix as it is the fifth-largest city in the nation. Again, anyone who believes this has not thoroughly researched the city.
As for travel to LA, SD, or anyplace in California you are looking at a 12-hour round trip (or longer depending on where you go) with parts that are barren and hot until you get closer to the coast. If you wanna see a barren drive take I-10 east to San Antonio, it's God-forsaken! As for cars being swept away by floods during monsoon, most of the problems with that arise because people attempt to drive through raging rivers despite all the warnings. By the way, we haven't had a decent monsoon (at least here in the basin) for some time.
Last edited by goolsbyjazz; 08-30-2020 at 05:04 PM..
Reason: info
You are speaking to someone who has lived all over the United States and travels for a living working for a Fortune 500 company. I can choose to reside anywhere, and we have chosen Phoenix. The reason we like Phoenix is it has many large city amenities with a small town feel. I do not miss the traffic of the northeast or southern California. I do not miss the slums and large sections of the city being riddled with crime. There is truly no part of Phoenix that I'm afraid to drive through. I enjoy that most buildings and homes are relatively new with modern features. The roads and freeway systems are well designed. We have a wonderful airport that is easy to access and has a lot of amenities.
Small town feel? Well, maybe compared to NYC ... however, with our enormous sprawl & population growth, Phoenix hasn't had a a small town feel in many years. And with the exception of this year (which has been anything but normal), rush hour traffic here can be just as bad as the east & west coast cities. The difference is: traffic usually flows pretty smoothly during non rush hour times. A lot of your points make sense, but the nation's 5th largest city shouldn't be acting like a small town. If people want a small town feel, there are many small towns in Arizona & the SW which would suit their needs better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barca12
For me, the heat is not pleasant but it isn't crippling. It doesn't prevent me from traveling.
Agree 100% on this point. In fact, the hotter it gets here, the more likely I am to travel to cooler destinations.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barca12
The mornings and evenings are still quite pleasant. We enjoy going into our pool in the evenings and grilling out. Phoenix has no real inclement weather. We have no hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, snow storms, ice storms, flooding and other bad weather you see on the news.
Now, this is where I need to point out an inconsistency. If you didn't have a pool, you'd likely feel very differently about going outside in the heat. Same with your house: if it didn't have a reliable HVAC system, you'd be miserable. Having the convenience of air conditioning & a swimming pool makes a world of difference as far as heat tolerance. Also, while it's true that we don't have hurricanes, earthquakes, snow, and ice, we do have bad weather in the form of severe storms & flooding on occasion, and intense heat most of the summer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by barca12
The proximity to other cities is a bonus. To be able to get into my car and drive to LA, Las Vegas, San Diego and Rocky Point in a matter of hours during the summer months is a real plus.
This is true, but Phoenix should be able to have attractions that are similar or better. I'd love it if the Phoenix area could have Vegas styled shows & nightlife, and maybe some California styled theme parks so that we don't have to make trips to see those things. We lose a lot of tourism to Vegas and southern CA which could be kept here if we had more things to see & do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maroon197
One potential reason people might move here and then dislike it is that they get misleading information from internet forums like this. Pleasant evenings? It’s often still over 100 degrees at 11:00pm. Small town feel? Phoenix is a giant, massive unending sprawl of identical suburbia and strip malls that houses over 4 million people. Sounds like Mayberry. Proximity to other cities? LA is a 14 hour round trip drive through barren, hot, desolate desert. Sounds like something most average people will sign up for often. Oh and I’m sure the people who have had their cars swept away during our heavy monsoon and winter rains will be happy to know there isn’t actually any flooding here.
Good points, but you tend to exaggerate. Most people who are swept away in our occasional heavy rain storms could have prevented it from happening by not driving on flooded streets, and especially avoiding flooded washes. In other words: they deserve what they get. We have a Stupid Motorist Law in Arizona for this very reason.
And feigning objectivity when providing a biased response hardly lends you any credibility as well.
You are speaking to someone who has lived all over the United States and travels for a living working for a Fortune 500 company. I can choose to reside anywhere, and we have chosen Phoenix. The reason we like Phoenix is it has many large city amenities with a small town feel. I do not miss the traffic of the northeast or southern California. I do not miss the slums and large sections of the city being riddled with crime. There is truly no part of Phoenix that I'm afraid to drive through. I enjoy that most buildings and homes are relatively new with modern features. The roads and freeway systems are well designed. We have a wonderful airport that is easy to access and has a lot of amenities.
Yes, it does get hot here in the summer. What large city doesn't possess bad weather part of the year? The exceptions would be Los Angeles and San Diego. Outside of those cities, all cities have poor weather part of the year. For me, the heat is not pleasant but it isn't crippling. It doesn't prevent me from traveling. It doesn't close down establishments like schools or roads. The mornings and evenings are still quite pleasant. We enjoy going into our pool in the evenings and grilling out. Phoenix has no real inclement weather. We have no hurricanes, tornados, earthquakes, snow storms, ice storms, flooding and other bad weather you see on the news.
The proximity to other cities is a bonus. To be able to get into my car and drive to LA, Las Vegas, San Diego and Rocky Point in a matter of hours during the summer months is a real plus.
I am also confused why people choose to continue to live here if they detest Phoenix so much? It does not really make a lot of sense. Why are you still living here if it's such a bad place. It really makes you question their credibility. There are many opinions regarding Phoenix but the data is there to support positive opinions regarding Phoenix. In the last 5 years, Phoenix was ranked #1 at one point for job growth, population growth and now new home buyers. That does not happen because people are ill informed and just move here. As much as you and others would like to imply, people do not just move here because they are ignorant. The reason you don't read more positive reviews is happy people in general do no post reviews on social media. In general, it is angry and unhappy people who feel the need to take time out of their day to criticize a place. Happy people rarely post online reviews unless they are prompted.
Hell yes! Spoken like someone who has experience moving around and understands that every city in the world has trade offs! Great feedback on how little our "bad season" impacts most people's day to day lives compared to what other cities have to deal with.
The other odd part to me is that the country really just has 2 large, southwestern desert cities to pick from basically here and Vegas. If one doesn't like this climate, geography environment etc.. there's 100's of cities east of the Mississippi which all pretty much look the same. This is actually one of the most unique places to live in the world and I appreciate that our surrounding environment doesn't like like anywhere USA.
Ok, time for a moment of levity here. I will agree there may be some information that could seem misleading as most of the information posted on these threads is subjective. However, anyone seriously considering a move here has the responsibility to at least do their own research and visit before relocating. For those unable to do so, they will have to take their chances. During June-August the temps definitely will most likely be over 100 degrees at night. However, mid-late September the temps start going down and October-March temps are quite pleasant. I agree, there is nothing small townish about Phoenix as it is the fifth-largest city in the nation. Again, anyone who believes this has not thoroughly researched the city.
As for travel to LA, SD, or anyplace in California you are looking at a 12-hour round trip (or longer depending on where you go) with parts that are barren and hot until you get closer to the coast. If you wanna see a barren drive take I-10 east to San Antonio, it's God-forsaken! As for cars being swept away by floods during monsoon, most of the problems with that arise because people attempt to drive through raging rivers despite all the warnings. By the way, we haven't had a decent monsoon (at least here in the basin) for some time.
Nice way to bring this discussion back. I'd also say not only can a person do their own research, the temperatures are well documented and can be researched through a multitude of sources. There is no hiding temperature data and while I agree it's best to visit both during winter and summer months, one can research sunshine percent, UV index, humidity levels, monsoon season stats, to the degree they'd like.
I also get a kick out of the barren comment, I've done the Austin to Dallas trek a few times and wow was I bored of looking at flat grassland.
The trip to LA goes like this for me and I'm sure countless others. About 6 hours total drive time, sometimes I've beaten that a little sometimes it's longer. There's really only about 3 hours of open road but it's still interesting scenery to check out, the first hour is still Phoenix and the last 2 hours are LA. I don't mind it much at all and have pulled off at some stops over the years when I wasn't in a hurry to check stuff out. Last time I went by the Salton Sea which was pretty interesting. Another time I stopped into Joshua Tree NP.
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When you isolate the variables, all things being equal, you can deliver a better education when you spend more money if and only if you have motivated students. If you understand that THE highest-spending districts are the most troubled, then you can see why the results are skewed. Furthermore, if I want to prove that spending less gets better results, allow me to compare Catholic schools who spend the least amount of money to an intercity schools like Washington DC ($21,000 per student). 
