Water restrictions: are they coming to the valley? (Tempe: lease, home)
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It is a common misconception that the east valley get SRP water and the west CAP. About two-thirds of Scottsdale's water comes from the CAP, for example. Gilbert gets about one third of theirs from the CAP. Chandler not only depends on a CAP allocation but inked a deal with the Salt River Indian Community to buy 600K acre feet of their CAP allocation for the next 100 years. Pretty much every valley city is dependent to one extent or another. In fact, cities in the far west valley are more likely on groundwater wells than CAP. Goodyear had no access to its allocation until 2017 when a deal was struck with SRP to deliver it through the SRP canals. The long and short of it is that a CAP shortage potentially affects all of us.
And the ground water issues in the west valley are going to be the large issues with cities like Buckeye planning to bring in hundreds of thousands of new residents
And the ground water issues in the west valley are going to be the large issues with cities like Buckeye planning to bring in hundreds of thousands of new residents
Yep. Buckeye has some serious water challenges to growth and may never reach the population that they project. On the other hand, where will the people who keep coming here go? Anyway, Buckeye is looking at buying water rights in the Harqualhala valley, but many water speculators are after the same water and it won't be cheap because of that - if there is even enough. Then they would have to pump it and move it somehow to Buckeye - maybe with a wheeling agreement with CAP. They do have access to some waterlogged areas along the Gila River in Buckeye. APS tried to get this and I think failed. Treatment costs for it will be significant. Buckeye has no CAP allocation.
Lantanas don't seem to mind chlorinated pool water, especially if there is some algae mix in there from the filter. Others don't like it as much. Our hose reaches the lawn so it gets a good flood every once in a while.
Lantanas, grass, other flowering plants that are commonly used in a yard don't need a whole lot of water compared to growing acres of crops though. It seems this thread is out for two things.
1) Shame homeowners using an unconnected and irrelevant event happening on a water system that a majority of Metro Phoenix doesn't use or is affected by as far as water usage.
2) Shutting down farmers that FEED US by saying that the systems that were built to keep them in business are antiquated and we should all be eating Beyond Burgers, drinking almond milk and getting our veggies through a smoothie drink. Sorry...some of us actually like FOOD. That food comes from farmers, ranchers and Dairies.
Again...maybe this isn't Arizona's fault as much as it is the lion share of the water from the Colorado going to CA...who is unaffected by these first cuts.
Except that this is a connected and relevant event, that’s why this thread even exists to begin with. I don’t see any threads in here talking about how people like to cook their eggs, and that’s because that would truly be irrelevant. Almost all of the water utilities and irrigation districts use the CAP in the Phoenix metro in some way or another, either indirectly through a connection through another water utility, or much more directly.
This thread is out for one thing in my view:
- to put ALL of the blame on any one or group of things besides sharing some of that blame with those groups. Everyone loves to throw stones, but live in a glass house.
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Speaking of, the CAP was built with the contingency that we’d be one of the first to get cuts over CA with the feds. But I guess you wouldn’t know that, since talking about the CAP is probably irrelevant to you. Surely Arizona didn’t build one of the largest aqueduct projects in human history for it not to be used by ~80% of its people (80% live in Phoenix metro give or take). I bet it was built so that Arizona can land itself in the Guinness Book of World Records.
2) Shutting down farmers that FEED US by saying that the systems that were built to keep them in business are antiquated and we should all be eating Beyond Burgers, drinking almond milk and getting our veggies through a smoothie drink. Sorry...some of us actually like FOOD. That food comes from farmers, ranchers and Dairies.
This part of your post is a bit exaggerated. Nobody said anything about how we should be drinking almond milk & veggie smoothies, or eating Beyond Burgers as substitutes. Nobody who has posted on this thread is against farming in general. Yes, most of us prefer real food, and farming & ranching are definite necessities, but that doesn't mean it has to remain here in any substantial quantity ... especially when considering how much water it demands, and the fact that we're in a serious drought with imminent cutbacks forthcoming. We can (and do) get a lot of our produce, milk products, and meats shipped in from elsewhere. Adding to this is the realization that a fairly good share of the crops grown here are shipped out of state & don't benefit Phoenix area residents, and many AZ farmers are practically living on government subsidies.
From some of your other posts, it seems that you want to hang on to the Phoenix of the past ... maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I've noticed. It's true that agriculture was a vital part of the economy at one time, but it's not so much this way anymore. I remember when cotton fields practically dominated the landscape, even in parts of north Phoenix & Scottsdale some 50 years ago, but they have all disappeared because modernized development has been more in demand ever since, and it appears imminent that the Phoenix area will continue to go in this direction if future growth predictions are true.
As painful as it can be, we need be realistic that an agrarian economic system is no longer vital to an area like this, and we can't keep clinging to things which performed well decades ago. It's also very foolish to want to live in a big metro area but not accept growth, urbanization, and development as reasons for being here in the first place. Large industries such as technology & finance, and the competitive high paying jobs they bring are what Phoenix should primarily focus on. I'm not saying that some farming can't remain in a few outlying areas ... however, most of it should continue to be phased out as the population grows, economic needs shift, and the water situation becomes more critical.
It is a common misconception that the east valley get SRP water and the west CAP. About two-thirds of Scottsdale's water comes from the CAP, for example. Gilbert gets about one third of theirs from the CAP. Chandler not only depends on a CAP allocation but inked a deal with the Salt River Indian Community to buy 600K acre feet of their CAP allocation for the next 100 years. Pretty much every valley city is dependent to one extent or another. In fact, cities in the far west valley are more likely on groundwater wells than CAP. Goodyear had no access to its allocation until 2017 when a deal was struck with SRP to deliver it through the SRP canals. The long and short of it is that a CAP shortage potentially affects all of us.
You know what? You are correct. CAP does supply some cities in Metro Phoenix. Thank you for pointing that out.
This part of your post is a bit exaggerated. Nobody said anything about how we should be drinking almond milk & veggie smoothies, or eating Beyond Burgers as substitutes. Nobody who has posted on this thread is against farming in general. Yes, most of us prefer real food, and farming & ranching are definite necessities, but that doesn't mean it has to remain here in any substantial quantity ... especially when considering how much water it demands, and the fact that we're in a serious drought with imminent cutbacks forthcoming. We can (and do) get a lot of our produce, milk products, and meats shipped in from elsewhere. Adding to this is the realization that a fairly good share of the crops grown here are shipped out of state & don't benefit Phoenix area residents, and many AZ farmers are practically living on government subsidies.
From some of your other posts, it seems that you want to hang on to the Phoenix of the past ... maybe I'm wrong, but this is what I've noticed. It's true that agriculture was a vital part of the economy at one time, but it's not so much this way anymore. I remember when cotton fields practically dominated the landscape, even in parts of north Phoenix & Scottsdale some 50 years ago, but they have all disappeared because modernized development has been more in demand ever since, and it appears imminent that the Phoenix area will continue to go in this direction if future growth predictions are true.
As painful as it can be, we need be realistic that an agrarian economic system is no longer vital to an area like this, and we can't keep clinging to things which performed well decades ago. It's also very foolish to want to live in a big metro area but not accept growth, urbanization, and development as reasons for being here in the first place. Large industries such as technology & finance, and the competitive high paying jobs they bring are what Phoenix should primarily focus on. I'm not saying that some farming can't remain in a few outlying areas ... however, most of it should continue to be phased out as the population grows, economic needs shift, and the water situation becomes more critical.
I don't think we need to hang on to Phoenix of the past. Even 30 years ago there were active fields all over Metro Phoenix. Many of those disappeared during the building boom in the early 2000s and there are still sustainable farms on the west side. The farms most affected are going to be the ones outside the Metro area. I don't think we are an agrarian economy any more but we can't ignore that our food has to come from somewhere. If we stop growing locally, food prices are going to go up as we have to ship food from other states. If you don't have traditional sources for food...where is it going to come from?
I kind of liked the idea a couple of years ago where they were promoting micro farms (local) in shipping containers. Not sure what the return/cost of that solution would be but it allows a climate/pest controlled environment within an urban area to still produce crops. Not on the scale that traditional farming would but maybe think of it as "distributed farming".
I just feel like that while, yes, water is a vital resource that AZ as a whole has to have to exist, all of the news articles are focusing on what that means for AZ...like we are the major recipient of Colorado River water. As Ponderosa pointed out earlier, my assumption that Metro Phoenix didn't participate in that system was incorrect although at this point in time, CAP is saying municipalities are not going to get cut. The fact remains that CA receives most of the water out of that system through the Colorado River Compact (which AZ has fought over ever since it was signed and resulted in a Supreme Court case) which drastically over estimated the amount of water that could be distributed. Add to that the fact that CA has been pumping "excess" water that the other states didn't use constantly and, although it seems reasonable to blame the "desert State" for the depletion of Mead/Powell, Greater Los Angeles is reliant on their Colorado River allocation for about 60% of their water.
Anyway...conserve what you want, don't conserve, rip out your lawns, whatever. Until CA does something to curb their consumption, the levels will keep dropping.
Yep. Buckeye has some serious water challenges to growth and may never reach the population that they project. On the other hand, where will the people who keep coming here go?
Somewhere else.
I do not understand the mentality that because people want to come here, we're required to accommodate them. We must build and build and build and build. We must increase density. We must squeeze in closer to make more room. We must conserve so they can consume.
How about... no? "That's it, folks... we're out of room, we're out of water. We don't need any new residents. You're going to have to look somewhere else."
I do not understand the mentality that because people want to come here, we're required to accommodate them. We must build and build and build and build. We must increase density. We must squeeze in closer to make more room. We must conserve so they can consume.
How about... no? "That's it, folks... we're out of room, we're out of water. We don't need any new residents. You're going to have to look somewhere else."
I have this discussion frequently on a facebook group I run focused on CG development - and Pinal county is target zero for this issue as the Pinal farmers are the first one to get hit with cuts. Believe me - as a pro-development guy - with our city facing similar issues as Buckeye - I get it every day.
So, I respect your answer in the sense that if one does not want growth - say so. That is a valid position to hold.
HOWEVER, if the water issue is being used as your "reason" for no growth - then I will push back all day. SOLVE THE WATER ISSUE! Get it from where it is to where it isn't. It CAN be done and I am convinced it WILL be done.
In the meantime - release water certificates that are based on development so far out it will be decades if ever before any building happens - and use those in more realistic developments in the urban/suburban areas.
If they raise the price of water, not so mysteriously, consumption will go down. IMO, that will be the eventual approach. Before then, the farmers are going to get hit.
Is it possible some state leaders are downplaying the water issue because they don't want to lose out on money influx from new residents/businesses?
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