Water restrictions: are they coming to the valley? (Phoenix, Tucson: disposal, living)

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by Mike from back east

There are several water threads in AZ forums, this thread seems the largest recent one so I'll add stuff here.

Per the NY Times, today the Federal Government announced"A New Round of Colorado River Cuts" that affect only AZ, NV and Mexico at this time.

Excerpts: " But for now the government stopped short of mandating large reductions that officials have said will be needed next year to protect the river’s infrastructure. ... Officials ... said that levels at the Colorado’s two main reservoirs, Lake Mead and Lake Powell, remained dangerously low after more than two decades of drought in the Southwest made worse by climate change. Lake Mead, behind Hoover Dam at the Arizona-Nevada border, is now about 175 feet lower than it was in 2000, ... That level triggers agreed-upon cuts in the amounts that two of the Lower Basin states, Arizona and Nevada, and Mexico can take from Lake Mead. The other Lower Basin state, California, is not currently affected, nor are the Upper Basin states of Colorado, Wyoming, Utah and New Mexico. About 40 million people depend on the Colorado for at least some of their water, and it irrigates more than 5.5 million acres of land. ... With the new cuts, AZ will have had to reduce its Colorado consumption by nearly 600,000 acre feet, or 21 percent of its annual allocation. NV's total reductions are now 25,000 acre feet, or about 8 percent of its allocation. Mexico’s cuts total 104,000 acre feet, 7 percent of its allotted supply. In AZ, the cuts have largely affected farmers in the central part of the state. And when it comes to the steeper cuts called for by Ms. Touton, agriculture is expected to be most affected as well. Agriculture uses about three-quarters of the Colorado supply."


The summer monsoon here in AZ is going well, so far, but it's not much help for the Colorado River.

I don't know why some people insist on farming in a desert.

[KurtAZ]

Originally Posted by odinloki1

Hmmm the government elected by all these retirees in Arizona, have sold off large portions of the state in order to avoid inconvenience or sacrifice now and then leave a nice mess for the next generations.

Sounds typical. Good job running things like a business AZ and only thinking about the short term.

That is not even a good business decision though. Leasing the acreage at less than half the going rate and then not charging them for water extraction? Someone got paid off.

[odinloki1]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

That is not even a good business decision though. Leasing the acreage at less than half the going rate and then not charging them for water extraction? Someone got paid off.

That is America. The Supreme Court has been working hard to make bribery legal with decisions like Citizens United and Cruz vs FEC.

[phetaroi]

Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised

It was always about when, not if, cuts happen. Bring it on! I'm fine with the cost of water going up in order to plug leaking canals, reclaim water, etc. Raise the price and people will use less. We need to get ahead of this one. But it seems people only react when the system is completely broken.

I agree. Desalinization is a must, and not decades down the road.

[timothyaw]

Originally Posted by KurtAZ

That is a literal drop in the bucket.

Compared to agriculture yes.

[Burning Madolf]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

I agree. Desalinization is a must, and not decades down the road.

Good luck getting the plants past the environmentalists.

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by phetaroi

I agree. Desalinization is a must, and not decades down the road.

Desalination sounds great but it rarely works and here is why. When there is drought as is now, everyone wants to spend the billions of dollars for desalting. So investments are made in plants that take years and years to build (and in AZs case will require pumping water over a thousand feet uphill to PHX). The plants require a huge amount of energy, transmission pipes, pump stations et. The cost of the water is outrageously expensive but in bad drought they can get the money to make it work, though it remains prohibitively expensive for agricultural uses and that is where 75% of AZ water goes.

Then it rains. The drought always ends. And suddenly nobody wants to pay a king's ransom for desalted water pumped uphill a thousand feet or so. They go back to the local sources that are gravity driven. But the plant is still there, still needs maintenance and repairs and generally falls apart from lack of use. The plant eventually gets mothballed with very high restart expenses if they can get it up again at all.

Then the drought comes.

Then the snows come again.

Feast and famine. That's western water.



Now, if you think this drought is going to last another 20 years, then maybe rapid, intense investment in desalting is called for. Point being there has to be a continuous, enduring need for desalted water. We are not yet at the point in Arizona.

Now I do think it would be prudent at this point to start doing the mountain of work that has to go on before such a plant could be built. Site selection, maybe negotiation with Mexico, identifying sources of power, planning pipeline routes, environmental and geophysical studies. That would greatly reduce the time needed to begin construction should the economic equation shift.

[WanderingRebel]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Desalination sounds great but it rarely works and here is why. When there is drought as is now, everyone wants to spend the billions of dollars for desalting. So investments are made in plants that take years and years to build (and in AZs case will require pumping water over a thousand feet uphill to PHX). The plants require a huge amount of energy, transmission pipes, pump stations et. The cost of the water is outrageously expensive but in bad drought they can get the money to make it work, though it remains prohibitively expensive for agricultural uses and that is where 75% of AZ water goes.

Then it rains. The drought always ends. And suddenly nobody wants to pay a king's ransom for desalted water pumped uphill a thousand feet or so. They go back to the local sources that are gravity driven. But the plant is still there, still needs maintenance and repairs and generally falls apart from lack of use. The plant eventually gets mothballed with very high restart expenses if they can get it up again at all.

Then the drought comes.

Then the snows come again.

Feast and famine. That's western water.



Now, if you think this drought is going to last another 20 years, then maybe rapid, intense investment in desalting is called for. Point being there has to be a continuous, enduring need for desalted water. We are not yet at the point in Arizona.

Now I do think it would be prudent at this point to start doing the mountain of work that has to go on before such a plant could be built. Site selection, maybe negotiation with Mexico, identifying sources of power, planning pipeline routes, environmental and geophysical studies. That would greatly reduce the time needed to begin construction should the economic equation shift.

People on the news tell me that climate change really can't be reversed at this point. We are doomed. Are you saying this isn't true? Are you saying weather and climate has ebbs and flows throughout the history of our Earth? Hmmmm.....

[Ponderosa]

Originally Posted by WanderingRebel

People on the news tell me that climate change really can't be reversed at this point. We are doomed. Are you saying this isn't true? Are you saying weather and climate has ebbs and flows throughout the history of our Earth? Hmmmm.....

I don't know. I do think that what has been going on with respect to the Colorado snowpack is not climate change. My background, though, is civil engineering, not climate scientist so I would defer to the experts. Even if it is, climate change could also bring copious "atmospheric rivers" over California and the western slopes of the Rockies bringing reservoir levels back up in a hurry. Plan for the worst, hope for the best. I just think it is a bit premature to jump in head first with both feet on desalination given the dismal experience of California in that area over the boom and bust cycles of western water. Conservation and letting price determine highest and best use is a better strategy for now.

[Not Sure 12]

Originally Posted by Ponderosa

Conservation and letting price determine highest and best use is a better strategy for now.

This doesn't get you funding for your research project.

Just sayin'.