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One article which increases the speculation of moving the team back to Footprint Center. I say NO to this idea. The arena was recently renovated for millions of dollars. It would be a waste of time & money to do another renovation of the same venue. There's enough available land downtown in the form of open parking lots & useless old structures which could be razed for a brand new arena (one such parcel is to the west & south of Footprint). The team needs to be centrally located ... but most of all, they shouldn't be using taxpayer money for their developments. The league & franchise can easily utilize their own funding & sources, and it won't even need to be put on a ballot so that NIMBYs can vote it down again.
In addition to the venue, there is also need for 10,000 parking spots. At Footprint, they already have that (sort of). We don't need more paved desert or parking garages in downtown Phoenix - particularly for a hockey rink that appeals to a very small fraction of residents. We need affordable housing and retail that will bring life to the area.
And no matter what there are costs to the host city for infrastructure, traffic improvements, police and fire services etc. Phoenix would be sold a bill of BS that the stadium would increase tax revenues in excess of what all that might cost. It never happens. These projects are losers for everyone but the billionaire ownership.
It is well accepted that the ticket buying fan base for the Coyotes is primarily in Scottsdale. Let Scottsdale build them a home. Funny we never see Scottsdale offering to do that. I guess people there are smart enough to let dupes like Glendale, Tempe or Phoenix get taken to the cleaners.
The AZ Republic conducted interviews with Scottsdale's mayor and council members after the Tempe vote. All of them were negative to the point of coming just short of saying "hell no".
Last edited by Ponderosa; 05-20-2023 at 10:56 AM..
This is a pretty good report about it. What I find startling is that only 29,157 votes were cast. The population of Tempe is approx 185,000, so that is about 16% of residents. It only failed by about 3,500 votes, or less than 2% of Tempe population.
I get that this is our democratic process, but it sure doesn't give me a warm fuzzy feeling about this being a solid decision that represents the issue. I guess just not enough people care about hockey around Phoenix, but the hundreds of thousands of people who do will now have to live with the decisions of 3,500 people.
Last edited by KO Stradivarius; 05-20-2023 at 01:08 PM..
In addition to the venue, there is also need for 10,000 parking spots. At Footprint, they already have that (sort of). We don't need more paved desert or parking garages in downtown Phoenix - particularly for a hockey rink that appeals to a very small fraction of residents. We need affordable housing and retail that will bring life to the area.
Downtown Phoenix certainly doesn't need additional parking LOTS, and that's what I propose getting rid of. There are 2 of them next to Footprint, along with some old useless buildings, which would be sizeable enough for a hockey arena and a garage. The garage doesn't need to be anything big. Plenty of people who go downtown use other forms of transportation besides their own cars (it's a pain in the rump to drive downtown anymore). It would be a perfect location: Chase Field, Footprint Center, and a hockey arena all in a row on the same street ... on the light rail and centrally located like they should be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa
And no matter what there are costs to the host city for infrastructure, traffic improvements, police and fire services etc. Phoenix would be sold a bill of BS that the stadium would increase tax revenues in excess of what all that might cost. It never happens. These projects are losers for everyone but the billionaire ownership.
It is well accepted that the ticket buying fan base for the Coyotes is primarily in Scottsdale. Let Scottsdale build them a home. Funny we never see Scottsdale offering to do that. I guess people there are smart enough to let dupes like Glendale, Tempe or Phoenix get taken to the cleaners.
Well, the same concern about infrastructure would be true in Scottsdale. Taxpayers in Scottsdale would be on the hook for all the items you mentioned ... unless the franchise, the league, and the investors do the right thing and pay for everything themselves. Doesn't matter if the arena is in Scottsdale, Glendale, Tempe, Phoenix, or Queen Creek as far as the costs are concerned. Taxpayers should never be obligated to subsidize these things which should strictly be private enterprise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa
The AZ Republic conducted interviews with Scottsdale's mayor and council members after the Tempe vote. All of them were negative to the point of coming just short of saying "hell no".
I know you've long been an advocate for pushing things to the 'burbs, but let's be real. Most hockey arenas in other cities are in centralized locations ... even in "decentralized" places like San Jose, Las Vegas, and Dallas. The proposed site that was voted down near downtown Tempe would have been a fairly good somewhat centralized location, but it really should be in the heart of the main city. In Vegas, the Golden Knights aren't downtown, but they are right near the Strip, which is where the main hub is. Putting something like this in a suburban location, or worse yet, in distant exurbia or tribal land where there is no existing infrastructure is a disaster waiting to happen. The Westgate location was proof enough of this.
In addition to the venue, there is also need for 10,000 parking spots. At Footprint, they already have that (sort of). We don't need more paved desert or parking garages in downtown Phoenix - particularly for a hockey rink that appeals to a very small fraction of residents. We need affordable housing and retail that will bring life to the area.
There is no need for any additional parking downtown, even if a hockey arena is built. Downtown already has a surplus of parking, and if market forces dictate pricing, parking rates will be high enough to create incentives to use other more modes of transport. To help address that need, light rail will expand next year to bring service to more areas. There are many good reasons to be skeptical of subsidized sports venues, but an imagined need for vehicle storage is not among them.
There is no need for any additional parking downtown, even if a hockey arena is built. Downtown already has a surplus of parking, and if market forces dictate pricing, parking rates will be high enough to create incentives to use other more modes of transport. To help address that need, light rail will expand next year to bring service to more areas. There are many good reasons to be skeptical of subsidized sports venues, but an imagined need for vehicle storage is not among them.
Unfortunately, too many people in the Phoenix area lack innovation, including our "leaders". Ever since the defeat of the Tempe proposal, there have been many speculations about where the Coyotes should go. Most of the suggestions have been Mesa or Scottsdale, but downtown Phoenix is hardly mentioned. Even when it is brought up, the only thing I'm hearing is renovate Footprint Center, and move the team there. Duh, it was recently renovated at a cost of over $200 million, and not for the purpose of ice hockey! Besides, Footprint doesn't need to be a multi purpose sports venue when the land directly west/southwest of Footprint is screaming to be developed into something worthwhile. It would be an excellent location for a hockey arena with the Suns & DBacks on the same street.
Unfortunately, too many people in the Phoenix area lack innovation, including our "leaders". Ever since the defeat of the Tempe proposal, there have been many speculations about where the Coyotes should go. Most of the suggestions have been Mesa or Scottsdale, but downtown Phoenix is hardly mentioned. Even when it is brought up, the only thing I'm hearing is renovate Footprint Center, and move the team there. Duh, it was recently renovated at a cost of over $200 million, and not for the purpose of ice hockey! Besides, Footprint doesn't need to be a multi purpose sports venue when the land directly west/southwest of Footprint is screaming to be developed into something worthwhile. It would be an excellent location for a hockey arena with the Suns & DBacks on the same street.
maybe but where? Downtown land is basically all spoken for, you need to keep in mind a main financing mechanism that allows the Yotes project to pencil out is the entertainment district/living units associated it. You're not just looking for space for the arena, you need a much larger location for this full district concept. I don't think the arena by itself will work financially without subsidies, which isn't going to fly.
Downtown Phoenix certainly doesn't need additional parking LOTS, and that's what I propose getting rid of. There are 2 of them next to Footprint, along with some old useless buildings, which would be sizeable enough for a hockey arena and a garage. The garage doesn't need to be anything big. Plenty of people who go downtown use other forms of transportation besides their own cars (it's a pain in the rump to drive downtown anymore). It would be a perfect location: Chase Field, Footprint Center, and a hockey arena all in a row on the same street ... on the light rail and centrally located like they should be.
Well, the same concern about infrastructure would be true in Scottsdale. Taxpayers in Scottsdale would be on the hook for all the items you mentioned ... unless the franchise, the league, and the investors do the right thing and pay for everything themselves. Doesn't matter if the arena is in Scottsdale, Glendale, Tempe, Phoenix, or Queen Creek as far as the costs are concerned. Taxpayers should never be obligated to subsidize these things which should strictly be private enterprise.
I know you've long been an advocate for pushing things to the 'burbs, but let's be real. Most hockey arenas in other cities are in centralized locations ... even in "decentralized" places like San Jose, Las Vegas, and Dallas. The proposed site that was voted down near downtown Tempe would have been a fairly good somewhat centralized location, but it really should be in the heart of the main city. In Vegas, the Golden Knights aren't downtown, but they are right near the Strip, which is where the main hub is. Putting something like this in a suburban location, or worse yet, in distant exurbia or tribal land where there is no existing infrastructure is a disaster waiting to happen. The Westgate location was proof enough of this.
I'm not in favor of putting the hockey rink in the ex-urbs. Demographic studies show the fan base that can afford the suites that pay the bills is located in Scottsdale (north Scottsdale, actually). So THAT is where the rink should be built. Even the other side of Town Lake in south Scottsdale works for me. What I am pointing out is that Scottsdale wants hockey but wants nothing to do with a hockey stadium. Wonder why that is?
Last edited by Ponderosa; 05-22-2023 at 08:01 AM..
I always chuckle when elected leaders and billionaires tout the incredible $$$$ that sports teams bring in. And wondering out loud....if the folks living in the Westgate area really enjoy Cards' home games.
maybe but where? Downtown land is basically all spoken for, you need to keep in mind a main financing mechanism that allows the Yotes project to pencil out is the entertainment district/living units associated it. You're not just looking for space for the arena, you need a much larger location for this full district concept. I don't think the arena by itself will work financially without subsidies, which isn't going to fly.
If the Yotes are looking for a new permanent home, downtown Phoenix certainly has the availability for a new facility. There are still enough open parking lots & dilapidated buildings which can be bulldozed (two such parcels are next door to Footprint Center). There doesn't have to be a full entertainment district for the Coyotes. A new arena by itself would suffice. The team along with interested investors should be able to finance a new venue on their own without subsidies. Most people simply don't want to use public money to subsidize sports & their billionaire owners, even in Tempe where the voting populace tends to be more liberal. I'm sure that's one big reason why the proposal was defeated.
With that said, if I lived in Tempe, I probably would have voted for the entertainment district (although very reluctantly). Main reason is I'd like to see something more worthwhile in that area besides the landfill & vacant land, and I'm sick of NIMBYs pushing back against every kind of new development that would make significant improvements. At the same time, even if the entertainment district passed, what kind of guarantee would there be that it would be built to its full scale? We've seen the evidence of too many other proposed projects around here that were either delayed, scaled back, or not built as promised.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ponderosa
I'm not in favor of putting the hockey rink in the ex-urbs. Demographic studies show the fan base that can afford the suites that pay the bills is located in Scottsdale (north Scottsdale, actually). So THAT is where the rink should be built. Even the other side of Town Lake in south Scottsdale works for me. What I am pointing out is that Scottsdale wants hockey but wants nothing to do with a hockey stadium. Wonder why that is?
Doesn't really matter where the fan base lives. The vast majority of pro sports arenas are centrally located (mostly in downtown areas of large cities). Look at the list of NHL arenas in the link below. Nearly all of them are in the core cities ... not in suburban locations. Obviously, Scottsdale doesn't want to subsidize a new sports venue + all the infrastructure improvements. Who can blame them? Those things should be privately funded regardless of where the team plays.
It's an urban myth that the entire fanbase lives in Scottsdale, let alone North Scottsdale. Chandler and Gilbert residents make a significant percentage of the fanbase, way more than any West Valley city. I can understand why they are exploring the Fiesta Mall site in Mesa, since it is a reasonably central location to the majority of the fanbase. North Scottsdale might be a bit of a commute to the proposed Fiesta Mall site, but it sure beats Westgate in Glendale.
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