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The rich keep getting richer and the poor keep getting poorer. The middle class is disappearing. What will this country look like 100 years from now when minimum wage is $300/hr but rents are $200,000/month. I used to think this wealth disparity couldn't go on, but here we are. It is getting worse but how far can it go? Are we really going to see a country where .01% of the population owns 99% of the wealth? That's the direction we're headed. I'm all for American free enterprise, and I do believe the wealthy deserve what they have. Do they have too much? How do we keep the income disparity from getting worse? I have some ideas but most citizens of this country wouldn't go for it.
We're fine now but the **its going to hit the fan when the millenials come to retirement age.
@VN, the government HAS gotten involved in helping create this disparity. Policies like dozens of ways to avoid estate taxes, tax write-offs for business owners that can be easily manipulated, expanded capital gains advantages, loopholes that are not plugged allowing people and companies to game the system, etc. And once someone has money, it's a lot easier to have your lineage keep it. Wealth also offers your offspring a strong competitive advantage in life.
Yes, but then there's the other end of the scale where millions of Americans in the lower income brackets pay no taxes. Most retirees on fixed incomes (SS and perhaps small pensions) can attest to this. They don't even have to file returns. During COVID, nearly 60% of households paid no federal income tax thanks to all the handouts that I previously mentioned. I'm considered middle class, but my income is above the threshold for stimulus payments or anything else the gov't provided. Essentially, I'm picking up the slack for those who get the freebies and don't have to owe anything.
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Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
I'm speaking from experience. Since I own my own business, I can write off so much more than others. You have no idea on how much I can dodge taxes in comparison to a W2 employee. The laws were written by people with money for people with money. Anyone who says differently, doesn't understand how the system works.
Being self employed offers greater chances of becoming independently wealthy, but there are many other self employed people who fail miserably. Depends on the individual. Being employed at a large profitable company can also give a person the advantage to work his/her way up the ladder (as I have done to an extent). In the corporate world, it's all about keeping your eyes & ears open for opportunities. Many employees believe that advancing into management is the way to "make it big", but that's seldom the case. I was in management for a long time, and found out (a little too late) that other positions can offer much greater income potential. Somebody in sales or investment banking can rake in more than their previous manager's manager's manager!
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Originally Posted by MN-Born-n-Raised
All true ^^. 1000% fact! Giving away free money without mandating performance when you get the $$'s is the problem. Giveaways largely don't work because there are no measured expectations! You get $x, then, if you F'up, then you starve.
And yes, working your butt off from nothing to something can be done. I can personally attest to this concept. And it happens all around us. Statistically speaking, wealth breeds wealth. As mborner stated, the income gap is problematic. It's a major concern. But the Dems solution as you pointed out is too "compassionate." There is no balance.
Correct, and that's a major problem with this two party system. The unbalance is due to both sides being in lockstep with their own parties for their own political gain, and forget about serving the ones who they were elected to represent. While we can rightfully blame Biden for much of this mess, Trump was certainly responsible for a lot of it too (he's the one who initially approved trillions in COVID "relief"). What does it say about the state of this country when two of the WORST candidates are their respective parties' nominees?!
I definitely agree that there's a major problem with wages not keeping up with the cost of living, and this has become especially true in the Phoenix area recently. The ones I feel bad for the most are the younger Gen Zs who are just getting started in the workforce and are working their asses off to barely afford rent on a studio apartment. I'm talking about the ones who aren't from wealthy families (or whose families refuse to help them). But in the long run, they will end up being the winners if they continue to work hard, strive for excellence, and jump on the opportunities that come their way.
Yes, but then there's the other end of the scale where millions of Americans in the lower income brackets pay no taxes. Most retirees on fixed incomes (SS and perhaps small pensions) can attest to this. They don't even have to file returns. During COVID, nearly 60% of households paid no federal income tax thanks to all the handouts that I previously mentioned. I'm considered middle class, but my income is above the threshold for stimulus payments or anything else the gov't provided. Essentially, I'm picking up the slack for those who get the freebies and don't have to owe anything.
Being self employed offers greater chances of becoming independently wealthy, but there are many other self employed people who fail miserably. Depends on the individual. Being employed at a large profitable company can also give a person the advantage to work his/her way up the ladder (as I have done to an extent). In the corporate world, it's all about keeping your eyes & ears open for opportunities. Many employees believe that advancing into management is the way to "make it big", but that's seldom the case. I was in management for a long time, and found out (a little too late) that other positions can offer much greater income potential. Somebody in sales or investment banking can rake in more than their previous manager's manager's manager!
Correct, and that's a major problem with this two party system. The unbalance is due to both sides being in lockstep with their own parties for their own political gain, and forget about serving the ones who they were elected to represent. While we can rightfully blame Biden for much of this mess, Trump was certainly responsible for a lot of it too (he's the one who initially approved trillions in COVID "relief"). What does it say about the state of this country when two of the WORST candidates are their respective parties' nominees?!
I definitely agree that there's a major problem with wages not keeping up with the cost of living, and this has become especially true in the Phoenix area recently. The ones I feel bad for the most are the younger Gen Zs who are just getting started in the workforce and are working their asses off to barely afford rent on a studio apartment. I'm talking about the ones who aren't from wealthy families (or whose families refuse to help them). But in the long run, they will end up being the winners if they continue to work hard, strive for excellence, and jump on the opportunities that come their way.
For reference, my dad was a high school teacher in the 80's and he made enough to buy a home, race a formula ford with the SCCA, support two kids and have a wife that only made maybe $2k/month as a freelance writer(albeit this was in an affordable area of the midwest prior to my birth and their move to the Valley). Now.....there's no way in ell' you could make all that happen on a teachers salary. Not even in the midwest. Now....you cant even afford a home on a teachers salary. I'm an engineer and I make approximately double what a teacher makes and I can barely afford all that my father did.
For reference, my dad was a high school teacher in the 80's and he made enough to buy a home, race a formula ford with the SCCA, support two kids and have a wife that only made maybe $2k/month as a freelance writer(albeit this was in an affordable area of the midwest prior to my birth and their move to the Valley). Now.....there's no way in ell' you could make all that happen on a teachers salary. Not even in the midwest. Now....you cant even afford a home on a teachers salary. I'm an engineer and I make approximately double what a teacher makes and I can barely afford all that my father did.
The difference is, there are a lot more home features in 2024. When I grew up (I'm 59 now), we did NOT have air conditioning, a dishwasher, soft water, a garage, no stone front jewelry, 4" ceramic flooring, no blacksplash, etc. We had a single bathroom, 4 (small) bedrooms in a 2x4 construction with crappy windows.
In the Midwest, a pre-existing home is around $250K-$300K price tag.
Valley native, I don’t know anyone that doesn’t pay federal taxes. A few years ago before I went back to consulting I made 32k between SS and my pension and I paid federal taxes. That’s not exactly living high on the hog and I don’t live in a cheap city.
Influence over a period of time, sure but not set a rate themselves on a house they are renting out.
That is just a ridiculous claim. No individual can dictate what the rental market prices could be by themselves. If a comparable house is renting for $2000 in that area and you try to rent yours for $3000, what do you think will happen?
There seems to be some silly resentment and bias towards Californians because non-Californians may feel they were cheated out or something, and least that is the vibe I am getting with just about anyone saying similar stuff.
Like I said, it is silly.
It’s not ridiculous. We bought our house in 2020 and got outbid 5 different times by cash offers, and I know for a fact several of those people were from CA and one was from Colorado. It’s not one individual person, it’s an influx of Californians - have you seen all the plates? - who cashed out of their houses and have plenty of money to outbid locals for houses.
It’s also not just happening in Arizona. It happened in Colorado, Montana, Idaho, and I’m sure tons of other states, too. Californians drive up real estate prices, vote for tax increases, and destroy every state they invade. That’s why people hate them.
Sorry you’re one of the people driving up prices. The truth hurts. Hopefully you’re not turning the state blue, too.
All the last 4 post are so true. But what is the solution? Do we vote for politicians that will work in the best interest of the middle class and for Americans/ I would not hold my breath!!! Just look at the mess in the White House.
News Flash...politicians don't care about fixing problems, just want someone to point at and blame for the problems. Most of the time they should be looking in the mirror.
I hate to say it but looking at the state of our country, a little socialism wouldn't be a bad thing...except that it would make the poor just that much more dependent on the Gubmint. Any attempt to socialize major industries, say Medical Insurance and go to Medicare for all...how many people did you just put out of work that work for those insurance companies? Making Higher Education free...how many people's incomes or jobs did you just wipe out? And is the Dept of Education going to run the Universities? What happens to Private Colleges? Do citizens get vouchers to attend?
Our neighbors just moved back to Denmark (She was born there, he is American) but before they left they were talking about the differences in the government attitudes and how good it will be in a country where the government actually cares about their citizens.
It’s not ridiculous. We bought our house in 2020 and got outbid 5 different times by cash offers, and I know for a fact several of those people were from CA and one was from Colorado. It’s not one individual person, it’s an influx of Californians - have you seen all the plates? - who cashed out of their houses and have plenty of money to outbid locals for houses.
I was talking about a landlord dictating rental house prices merely by themselves. That was the ludicrous claim and it is. No individual can control/dictate any market, if all they own is a few properties.
Yes, I am from California but not all Californians relocate with ton of cash or have that type of a leverage. Those with cash were lucky enough to generate the equity over the years, even decades while paying thru the nose so in a way, they saved a lot of money over time. Not like they bought a house and the value quadrupled in a year or two and they cashed out.
If you were in their shoes and had that option, there is a good chance you would have done the same and someone else like you right now who wasn't so lucky might have been hating on you, jealousy or just bitterness or whatever.
Again, don't hate the player, hate the game.
I lived here 15 years ago and didn't care for Summers/heat.
I was actually going to relocate to PNW but due to my mom's need for my help, I am here for the time being and I am trying to make the best of the situation.
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It’s also not just happening in Arizona. It happened in Colorado, Montana, Idaho, and I’m sure tons of other states, too. Californians drive up real estate prices, vote for tax increases, and destroy every state they invade. That’s why people hate them.
You and people who think like you and consider Californians as enemies, got some serious issues and might need professional help because whining about it, is likely to exacerbate your condition.
Don't get me wrong, I am mad and jealous of snowbirds who actually are from every state BUT California.
All my clients are from somewhere else and I am guessing most of them are snowbirds. When I am living in my house which is not paid for, during the hellish Summers going forward, my friends in California will be waving at me with a smile.
My snowbirds clients will be chilling in their respective States during the Summers. May be I should hate them too?
If I see a guy with a gorgeous woman in his arms, I might hate him and hit him in the nuts. How dare he!
If you wanna be miserable, it really isn't hard and I know it is the current social trend to play some sort of a victim for some sad psychological reason but don't expect much sympathy from me.
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Sorry you’re one of the people driving up prices. The truth hurts. Hopefully you’re not turning the state blue, too.
Let's not bring politics into this already unpleasant and silly discussion.
Last edited by TurcoLoco; 04-29-2024 at 08:26 PM..
You and people who think like you and consider Californians as enemies, got some serious issues and might need professional help because whining about it, is likely to exacerbate your condition.
Agreed ^^. Plus, @swaysway forgot about Washington State residence. They too walked into AZ with equity up the wazoo! I have a ton of CA and WA new neighbors. Many left both of those states because of their tax-and-spend reputation. They too are scratching their head about how the homeless problem has been managed, all of the immigration taking over social services, etc. They discuss how much they miss how their states' former glory. Of the few dozen ex-CA and ex-WA residents that I met, they seem to be politically moderate. Not "woke" nor knuckling-dragging MAGA (often low-IQ) fans. Based on my anecdotal sampling evidence, they have thicker wallets because they are articulate, smart, and driven. They are where they are for a good reason.
i.e. There is a brain drain going on from those two states as they exit. I say welcome! But there is a saying in business: "A's hire A's caliber people and B's hire C's." Meaning, people who aren't as smart or don't work as hard are worried about people who kick their butt in life. So they don't want them to be in their playground.
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Policies like dozens of ways to avoid estate taxes, tax write-offs for business owners that can be easily manipulated, expanded capital gains advantages, loopholes that are not plugged allowing people and companies to game the system, etc. And once someone has money, it's a lot easier to have your lineage keep it. Wealth also offers your offspring a strong competitive advantage in life.
The laws were written by people with money for people with money. Anyone who says differently, doesn't understand how the system works.
Giving away free money without mandating performance when you get the $$'s is the problem. Giveaways largely don't work because there are no measured expectations!
You get $x, then, if you F'up, then you starve. 
But there is a saying in business: "A's hire A's caliber people and B's hire C's." Meaning, people who aren't as smart or don't work as hard are worried about people who kick their butt in life. So they don't want them to be in their playground. 
