Light Rail Stations - Where's the Shade? (Phoenix: construction, tax)

[Finger Laker]

these are crappy cell phone pictures I took from my office at 4pm today (which is when commuters would start lining up) - this is a station on central and I imagine all stations will have the same issue - the near side is east - as the day goes on the shade moves from the platform to over the tracks with the way the sun is positioned

as you can see there is very little shade from the sails on the platform for either side - only the eastern portion gets some relief due to the enclosed strutures casting a full shadow

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

in mpls it's very easy to not be exposed to the elements due to the extensive skyway system and many building having double doors creating a corridor where commuters huddle while waiting for transit.

That's true in Downtown Minneapolis, but most of the stations along the Hiawatha line aren't Downtown. Regardless, I think this is an example of how commuters adapt to adverse weather. They'll do the same here, even if the adaptations are different.

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

unfortunately i've rode the bus both there in the winter and here in the summer - neither were a picnic, but at least in the twin cities they kept somewhat of a schedule

I've taken buses both here and in the Twin Cities and have never had a significant problem with late buses in either place. Maybe I'm just lucky.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

these are crappy cell phone pictures I took from my office at 4pm today (which is when commuters would start lining up) - this is a station on central and I imagine all stations will have the same issue - the near side is east - as the day goes on the shade moves from the platform to over the tracks with the way the sun is positioned

as you can see there is very little shade from the sails on the platform for either side - only the eastern portion gets some relief due to the enclosed strutures casting a full shadow

I don't think photos from a distance are conclusive. I can't really see what's on the west side of the platform. It's entirely possible that the area right under the sails, which is where the seats are, is shaded. Every time I've looked up close and in person, I've seen shade over the seats on both sides.

[Finger Laker]

the west is blazing in direct sunlight - i can see it very clearly

also seats normally are limited versus ridership - so on this station there may be a few seats that attach to the full size structure blocking the sun - but the majority of the people will be baking while watching trains pull into the shade

it's pretty simple stuff - central runs north south so that means your passengers will be standing on the east & west ......... sun goes down toward the west creating an angle - no way the sails are providing any shade to the western portion when the sun starts moving - there is no barrier between it & people

also as the angle increases the shadow pushes out - at 2pm the east part was pretty well shaded - now not so much - at 5 it will be even worse

[synapse]

these are crappy cell phone pictures I took from my office at 4pm today (which is when commuters would start lining up) - this is a station on central and I imagine all stations will have the same issue - the near side is east - as the day goes on the shade moves from the platform to over the tracks with the way the sun is positioned.

Yeah, but look at the chairs - the way the light rail stations are set up, the chairs are set deep within the stations, so they're pretty much always under shade. Also, the canopies swoop over the stations, so there will be shade on at least one side (even if the train you are waiting for arrives at the other side, you just walk across.) The trains come every ten minutes - hardly a long wait. And, this is only a big problem from May to September anyway. I think it'll be fine. If people can wait on a largely exposed L platform in Chicago in winter for ten minutes, they can wait on a largely shaded light rail platform in Phoenix in summer for ten minutes.

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

the west is blazing in direct sunlight - i can see it very clearly

also seats normally are limited versus ridership - so on this station there may be a few seats that attach to the full size structure blocking the sun - but the majority of the people will be baking while watching trains pull into the shade

it's pretty simple stuff - central runs north south so that means your passengers will be standing on the east & west ......... sun goes down toward the west creating an angle - no way the sails are providing any shade to the western portion when the sun starts moving - there is no barrier between it & people

also as the angle increases the shadow pushes out - at 2pm the east part was pretty well shaded - now not so much - at 5 it will be even worse

For now, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've looked at the stations up close and continue to believe that they provide more shade than a flat roof over passengers would. That type of design usually allows passengers on both sides to bake when the sun is low in the sky. The design used here at least covers the seats, which are likely to be occupied by those passengers who arrive first and wait the longest. We'll know better next summer when actual passengers can provide feedback about their wait on the platforms. In a smart move, service is starting in December so that passengers can develop the rail habit during mild weather; that's basically the same strategy used when Minneapolis started service on the Hiawatha line during the summer.

[Finger Laker]

as stated - if they actually do run every 10 minutes it should be OK

however, the whole thing could of been mitigated with better engineering - i mean it's the same concept as a sun dial - shouldn't be that difficult to understand shadows by now

I know it's hard to see, but the platform ends at the bricks - the concrete starts the track buffer and they you can see the rails

there is literally no shade over the platform that results froms the sails at 4pm at a time of year when it's really hot out - it will be worse at 5pm

the only shade provided is where they closed off part of the station - i'm pretty sure that is where they'll put seats in, but seats will be limited in nature - you stand a row or 2 of people crowing in front of that and it would still leave a lot of people in direct sun

for a project this expensive it seems like a detail they could of done a lot better on

[Finger Laker]

Originally Posted by silverbear

For now, we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I've looked at the stations up close and continue to believe that they provide more shade than a flat roof over passengers would. That type of design usually allows passengers on both sides to bake when the sun is low in the sky. The design used here at least covers the seats, which are likely to be occupied by those passengers who arrive first and wait the longest. We'll know better next summer when actual passengers can provide feedback about their wait on the platforms. In a smart move, service is starting in December so that passengers can develop the rail habit during mild weather; that's basically the same strategy used when Minneapolis started service on the Hiawatha line during the summer.

go to central ave and look at any of the stations - sure the sail can work better than the flat top - that doesn't mean that it really works at all though as that design is really poor and doesn't do much at all to enhance shadows

i'll post another round at 5 to show how much they've moved in an hour

[fcorrales80]

Originally Posted by Finger Laker

as stated - if they actually do run every 10 minutes it should be OK

however, the whole thing could of been mitigated with better engineering - i mean it's the same concept as a sun dial - shouldn't be that difficult to understand shadows by now

I know it's hard to see, but the platform ends at the bricks - the concrete starts the track buffer and they you can see the rails

there is literally no shade over the platform that results froms the sails at 4pm at a time of year when it's really hot out - it will be worse at 5pm

the only shade provided is where they closed off part of the station - i'm pretty sure that is where they'll put seats in, but seats will be limited in nature - you stand a row or 2 of people crowing in front of that and it would still leave a lot of people in direct sun

for a project this expensive it seems like a detail they could of done a lot better on

Oh Jesus, the amount of complaining about sun by those from other regions of the country is unacceptable. Maybe I should go onto the Chicago forum in January and complain when I have to go there about waiting for my train when the wind-chill gives me instant frostbite in the evening or night. And Chaydee, or whatever, come on; lunch, briefcase, a purse and a gift bag for someone's party? Wow! I hardly see people carrying all that stuff in the first place and I doubt most people will load up like this in general. I've lived in NYC where most people use transit and they use umbrellas just fine when it rains or snows and I don't see too many loaded up with half their closets.

Many people in my office use "sunbrellas" made of canvas...think large patio umbrellas scaled down for personal use. Its really not that hard of a concept. As for shade, people will be fine unless they're from somewhere else and like to complain about how hot it is in Phoenix in the summer (where it is supposed to be hot). Because of the electrical lines overhead, large swooping canopies cannot be built within certain distances of those lines. Either way, as someone mentioned before, vines and other plants will grow in-between the screens providing more protection. When trees mature a little more in a couple of years there will be even more shade and downtown, buildings at 5pm offer shade from the sun.

If the city and metro area did not fight for money from the fed's to build this system people would complain that the city isn't at least trying to tackle transit issues. Since the city has earned federal funding, starting a system from scratch, people find some aspect to complain about with the project. With some people it is never a win situation.

[Finger Laker]

great answer - so instead of planning to make a mega expendature a little more comfortable for the tax payers who supported it, it's best to just dismiss them as people who should expect the sun

by that same logic, what is it with all these urban center people trying to make phoenix dense and transit reliant? - don't they realize it's always been car based and any attempt to change that is just stupid.............. i mean there is a reason they ripped out the street cars long before all of those cold weather refuges moved in

people down here aren't going to carry umbrellas for shade - not going to happen - like it or not most would consider that an inconvenience

on central there are no trees, or large buildings shading the stations - the pictures i provided are what you get and I imagine it's probably worse when the tracks start running east west and you have the direct morning and night sun beating down on people - at least they will be able to slide down platform away from the sails to find shadows cast

it's not a matter of trying to change phoenix from being hot, or complaining about the heat - it's about smart planning, understanding you customers and funders and creating the best solutions

i was here to vote yes on the proposition to fund this thing (which I did, btw) as well as other infrastructure items tied to that bill ....... most of them have been executed in typical AZ fashion