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Monorails are for theme parks. There are very few examples of monorails being used effectively in urban public transit networks. The Las Vegas monorail is one of the few recently built rail transit systems that has failed to meet ridership expectations, whereas light rail has exceeded ridership expectations almost everywhere it has been implemented. Light rail is appropriate for Phoenix and its inner suburbs, and commuter rail can play a role in reaching the outer suburbs.
Another thing too is that the Vegas monorail was privately funded ... paid for mostly by the casino/hotel owners. I'd like to see more of those privately funded systems. The trouble is that Phoenix and most other cities of similar size don't have a huge monopoly on the tourist industry like Vegas does. Therefore, there aren't too many billionaires rolling in the dough who can fund those kinds of transportation projects ... so the taxpayers are stuck paying for a slow light rail system that has a 50/50 chance of being successful.
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverbear
As for I-10, it almost certain that a light rail line will be built in the median over the next decade:
Valley Metro | Welcome (http://www.valleymetro.org/metro_light_rail/future_extensions/west/ - broken link)
I was wondering why much of Interstate 10 has those ugly, ineffective wire fences in the median, when they could easily be replaced with extra lanes or a rail system. Hopefully, those fences will be torn out & replaced with rail sooner than later. I'm skeptical about the effectiveness of light rail, but at least that would be better in the I10 median that those ridiculous fences that don't work.
Another thing too is that the Vegas monorail was privately funded ... paid for mostly by the casino/hotel owners. I'd like to see more of those privately funded systems. The trouble is that Phoenix and most other cities of similar size don't have a huge monopoly on the tourist industry like Vegas does. Therefore, there aren't too many billionaires rolling in the dough who can fund those kinds of transportation projects ... so the taxpayers are stuck paying for a slow light rail system that has a 50/50 chance of being successful.
The Las Vegas monorail is actually a good example of why privately funded urban public transit systems are often ineffective. The private ownership of the LV monorail has resulted in fares so high that ridership is much lower than it should be. Likewise, I believe that private ownership increased the tempation to go with a science fiction / theme park monorail system rather than a proven technology like light rail. In fact, recent discussions of how to extend the monorail to Downtown LV have focused on light rail or bus rapid transit as more cost-effective alternatives to building more monorail.
I'm generally supportive of market-based solutions, but transportation is one arena in which the market has failed -- even more so with most airlines on the edge of bankruptcy. All forms of transportation are heavily subsidized and will continue to be for the foreseeable future. The discussion, therefore, needs to focus on where and how those subsidies can be most intelligently applied.
InNorthern Virginia, things were all set to go, to extend the Metro from Vienna to IAD (Washington Dulles Airport--located in Virginia). They had about a billion dollars in Federal funding. But then came the snobs. They didn't want to see the elevated rail system. They tried to argue that it would cost the same to go underground (not!). The Feds, then decided the project would be too cost inefficient to fund, and the project has seemingly been scrapped (or at least delayed another 5-10 years, while people quible). Keep in mind people have been paying extra taxes into this thing for 40 years! Be careful what you wish for. I've spent the better part of the last three years in Thailand. I just saw a 1.2 acre partial of land sell for 37 million US Dollars. Why? Because it is located by the elevated rail system. Their "Skytrain" system has created the biggest real estate boom, that I have ever witnessed. 700 Dollars per square foot of land, in a country that has barely emerged from the third World. www.bts.co.th
Here is the english translation for barryH's link for those that are not familiar with Thai, LOL. However, it doesn't mention real estate value of property next to the system in Bangkok. Bangkok Mass Transit System Public Company Limited.
To clarify an important point, elevated rail does not necessarily mean monorail. In fact, most elevated rail systems around the world are not monorails. The Chicago El runs on two rails, not one. Even modern elevated systems like the Skytrains in Vancouver and Bangkok are not monorails.
There may an argument that elevated heavy rail could play a role in Phoenix, although I still don't think we have the density to justify any sort of heavy rail metro system, whether above or below ground. Regardless, that discussion should focus on elevated rail and not monorail. Most of the monorail systems around the world run only a few miles on Downtown routes (e.g. Sydney and Seattle) or around theme parks, zoos, and airports. Monorail has a sleek look, but it's not cost-effective over distances of more than a few miles, and it's often unreliable. Just look at the delays and service outages with the Las Vegas monorail. Most monorail systems around the world serve tourists, rather than actual commuters. Light rail remains the most effective solution in low and medium-density cities like Phoenix.
To clarify an important point, elevated rail does not necessarily mean monorail. In fact, most elevated rail systems around the world are not monorails. The Chicago El runs on two rails, not one. Even modern elevated systems like the Skytrains in Vancouver and Bangkok are not monorails.
There may an argument that elevated heavy rail could play a role in Phoenix, although I still don't think we have the density to justify any sort of heavy rail metro system, whether above or below ground. Regardless, that discussion should focus on elevated rail and not monorail. Most of the monorail systems around the world run only a few miles on Downtown routes (e.g. Sydney and Seattle) or around theme parks, zoos, and airports. Monorail has a sleek look, but it's not cost-effective over distances of more than a few miles, and it's often unreliable. Just look at the delays and service outages with the Las Vegas monorail. Most monorail systems around the world serve tourists, rather than actual commuters. Light rail remains the most effective solution in low and medium-density cities like Phoenix.
Very true, I was going to comment on the fact that the Bangkok system was not a monorail system. Monorails cannot move large amounts of people as there is only one track on which the car can move on and the same car would make the trip to and from a station. The only way I see one working is if the track was built in a circle so that multiple cars could run the route. This would still limit capacity greatly and one would have to ride around the whole loop to get back to their original station...not very smart.
Very true, I was going to comment on the fact that the Bangkok system was not a monorail system. Monorails cannot move large amounts of people as there is only one track on which the car can move on and the same car would make the trip to and from a station. The only way I see one working is if the track was built in a circle so that multiple cars could run the route. This would still limit capacity greatly and one would have to ride around the whole loop to get back to their original station...not very smart.
Yes, most monorails are loops. Las Vegas runs in two directions, but it's still based on a single-rail track in each direction, making it a monorail. In most cities with working elevated rail transit, conventional two-rail track is used in each direction. What I think a lot of people don't understand is that not every elevated train with a sleek look is a monorail. In fact, most are not monorails at all. True monorails are generally found only running short routes in tourist-oriented areas.
Last week I spent some time online checking out the locations of the stations and was amazed that most are at least 12 blocks apart. Even if a person lives halfway between stops, walking 6 blocks in the heat to catch the rail would be impossible for a lot of people.
The rail looks like a losing proposition to me. I don't think most people will hang around a station in the full Arizona sun to catch a rail ride. How come the developers didn't think of this? Oh yeah, because they won't be riding it, they will be going to work in their air conditioned limos.
altus2006
The scope of the light rail is terribly small. It basically only goes from central Phoenix, to downtown, to Mill Avenue and then into Mesa, if you don't live in these areas, and most don't you're out of luck. Seriously, for the amount of money and time spent on this, you would think it would be a more extensive metro. One metro line simply does not cut it for an area of this size.
DC, whose metro system probably has to encompass a smaller-sized area, has easily 5 or 6 of these lines. There is no reason Phoenix' metro system can't have as many lines as DC's.
Yes, most monorails are loops. Las Vegas runs in two directions, but it's still based on a single-rail track in each direction, making it a monorail. In most cities with working elevated rail transit, conventional two-rail track is used in each direction. What I think a lot of people don't understand is that not every elevated train with a sleek look is a monorail. In fact, most are not monorails at all. True monorails are generally found only running short routes in tourist-oriented areas.
What you are talking about isn't a circle or loop. If one train in each direction makes a loop, then geometry must be skewed. A loop is a continuously round formation. Two tracks running trains in opposite directions does not make a circle and would still not move many people given that only one train can make the trip on the track. A loop would allow more than one train to run the route as a queung system. One train would pull up to a station, followed by another, and another at different stations around the loop. Unless, what you mean is that once a train runs one direction, it switches tracks to run the opposite direction at the end of the route. Then that would technically be a loop...but that then makes the system something entirely different from a monorail.
What you are talking about isn't a circle or loop. If one train in each direction makes a loop, then geometry must be skewed. A loop is a continuously round formation. Two tracks running trains in opposite directions does not make a circle and would still not move many people given that only one train can make the trip on the track. A loop would allow more than one train to run the route as a queung system. One train would pull up to a station, followed by another, and another at different stations around the loop. Unless, what you mean is that once a train runs one direction, it switches tracks to run the opposite direction at the end of the route. Then that would technically be a loop...but that then makes the system something entirely different from a monorail.
We're kind of getting off topic here, but a monorail doesn't have to be a loop if there are two separate tracks. Monorail means one rail per track, but not necessarily one rail total. You can have two tracks, one in each direction, with one rail each. That's still a monorail, although it's an uncommon design. It's what allows the Las Vegas Monorail to run in two directions along a non-loop route.
Still, most monorails are loops and run short routes at tourist attractions. In general, monorails are not a good fit for urban transport systems. They're cost per mile is much higher than light rail but with no more passenger capacity, and their reliability has been spotty, especially in Las Vegas. Even in cases in which an elevated train is desirable, monorail is usually not the way to go in designing a linear route that runs more than a few miles.
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