Light rail opens TODAY (Dec 27th)...go check it out! (Phoenix: high school, costs)

[joninaz]

Originally Posted by silverbear

Transit 2000 is probably more relevant than Proposition 400 here. 400 applies more to the extension lines than the 20-mile starter line, which was funded primarily by the earlier referendum from 2000. Transit 2000 provides revenues for both construction and operations. Regardless of the financial details, I fear you'll never be convinced. Rail haters seem to have backed themselves into a corner and will continue to find ways to knock this project no matter how successful it proves to be. If rail haters would just simmer down for a while and let ridership numbers, accidents rates, etc. speak for themselves after a few years, we'd all be better off, but, sadly, that is unlikely to happen.

I'm using the Arizona Republic's reporting here.

And regarding your labeling, I love trains and have ridden great systems all over the world. Trains are fantastic in certain metro areas... where they make sense due to the population densities, job centers, geographical influences, deterrences to driving, etc. So no I'm not a rail hater, just someone who hates to see a money pit expanded in AZ, where the project's costs are completely disproportiante to needs. But I need not prove this - just look at the complete indifference of the nation's business and investment community.

But clearly I'm not going to change the minds of sunshine pumpers and kool aid drinkers either. But let me ask this...

A sports betting man is likely to put money on a champ that has proven their worth. A stock market guru puts their faith in companies that have a proven record of success. What achievements have any local govt. entities delivered that define and inspire your assurances of success?

[exit2lef]

Originally Posted by joninaz

I'm using the Arizona Republic's reporting here.

And regarding your labeling, I love trains and have ridden great systems all over the world. Trains are fantastic in certain metro areas... where they make sense due to the population densities, job centers, geographical influences, deterrences to driving, etc. So no I'm not a rail hater, just someone who hates to see a money pit expanded in AZ, where the project's costs are completely disproportiante to needs. But I need not prove this - just look at the complete indifference of the nation's business and investment community.

But clearly I'm not going to change the minds of sunshine pumpers and kool aid drinkers either. But let me ask this...

A sports betting man is likely to put money on a champ that has proven their worth. A stock market guru puts their faith in companies that have a proven record of success. What achievements have any local govt. entities delivered that define and inspire your assurances of success?

You're a hater -- maybe not of all rail, but certainly of this worthwhile project in Phoenix. Only a hater would continue to bring this issue up again and again. Only a hater would continue to use shifting arguments to knock down a project that has already been implemented. Only a hater would propose mutually contradictory alternatives that aren't alternatives at all: neighborhood circulators one week, a network of light rail all over Central Phoenix the next, etc. Only a hater would continually inflate and distort the numbers in every discussion of cost.

As for the confidence factor, let's begin with the decision to hire the person responsible for Minneapolis' successful light rail implementation to manage the system in Phoenix. You've said previously that our local rail officials have no experience with this type of project. From the top down, that's just plain wrong. But why let the facts stand in the way of hate? Please, just give it a rest for a while. A year from now, if ridership is low and accidents are high, come back with all the "I told you so's" you want, but right now it's as if the city is having a great party and you're pouting in the corner because you didn't get your way.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by joninaz

A sports betting man is likely to put money on a champ that has proven their worth. A stock market guru puts their faith in companies that have a proven record of success. What achievements have any local govt. entities delivered that define and inspire your assurances of success?

All mass transit in the nation are subsidized.

So will the light rail

[ArizonaBear]

Originally Posted by Greatday

All mass transit in the nation are subsidized.

So will the light rail

For that matter: so are freeways and surface streets; yet with rare exceptions--------no tolls are charged

[chandlerguy]

Originally Posted by silverbear

You're a hater -- maybe not of all rail, but certainly of this worthwhile project in Phoenix. Only a hater would continue to bring this issue up again and again. Only a hater would continue to use shifting arguments to knock down a project that has already been implemented. Only a hater would propose mutually contradictory alternatives that aren't alternatives at all: neighborhood circulators one week, a network of light rail all over Central Phoenix the next, etc. Only a hater would continually inflate and distort the numbers in every discussion of cost.

I hate people label everyone that disagrees with them as "haters".

[chandlerguy]

Originally Posted by HX_Guy

Look it up, it's true.
Light rail is faster, smoother, more pleasant and promotes pedestrian oriented dense development along it's route...you can't say any of those things about buses.
Nice try with the "25mph" argument. You do realize that is the average mph right? Including starting, stopping, and waiting for passengers to board. You may think your car averages whatever the posted speed limit is but it's usually about 1/2 that on surface streets when you account stop lights and waiting.

I doubt that slug averages speeds that are over 20 mph. It's certainly no faster than a bus with as many stops.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by chandlerguy

I hate people label everyone that disagrees with them as "haters".

Here is the thing: Your posts, your words, your "railing" indicated hatred.

In your case, the term "hater" may very well be appropriate

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by chandlerguy

I doubt that slug averages speeds that are over 20 mph. It's certainly no faster than a bus with as many stops.

It is faster.

[chandlerguy]

Originally Posted by zenkonami

What?

You might want to look up the maintenance costs and schedules on bus systems vs. rail systems over time. You might also have a look at reliability figures between them. In most cases, rail wins the day.

And in what way are Taxis cost effective for anyone but the cab company?

How about if we have a massive power failure? I doubt the rail has a backup power system but busses could still keep running.

[Greatday]

Originally Posted by chandlerguy

How about if we have a massive power failure? I doubt the rail has a backup power system but busses could still keep running.

There is backup power