City North - opinions? (Phoenix: gated, costs, lawsuit)

[rockybird]

This is what I dont like about City North:

Here's the backstory, nutshell version: Phoenix agreed to give Chicago-based Thomas J. Klutznick Company half the sales tax generated at CityNorth, Klutznick's new shopping center off the Loop 101 and 56th Street, for 11 years. But the giveaway was so over the top that it inspired state legislation to stop such subsidies in the future, a lawsuit from the Goldwater Institute, and, finally, an appellate court opinion that struck down the deal in no uncertain terms.

I guess it's going back to court. How can a private co., and an out of state co. at that, be entitled to tax dollars? It makes me not want to ever shop there.

Link:
Phoenix News - CityNorth: With Nordstrom Gone, Phoenix Fights for the Right to Bail Out Abu Dhabi - page 1

[miamiman]

How many malls does this Valley need? As much as I like my upscale shopping, I think that the Valley is on overdrive with this retail boom. I wouldn't be surprised if we beat out DFW for having the most malls per capita of any major metropolitan area in the United States. Scottsdale Quarter, CityNorth, Desert Ridge, Kierland, Palisene, One Scottsdale, and Scottsdale Fashion Square are all in competition just in the northeast Valley.

I am against CityNorth. It seems like Valley developers are on this "mixed-use" craze, and in the process we are being burdened with an overabundce of retail. The land could have been much better used to create a complex like Chelsea Piers in Manhattan or maybe even a museum complex.

[Robert A]

Originally Posted by miamiman

How many malls does this Valley need? As much as I like my upscale shopping, I think that the Valley is on overdrive with this retail boom. I wouldn't be surprised if we beat out DFW for having the most malls per capita of any major metropolitan area in the United States. Scottsdale Quarter, CityNorth, Desert Ridge, Kierland, Palisene, One Scottsdale, and Scottsdale Fashion Square are all in competition just in the northeast Valley.

I am against CityNorth. It seems like Valley developers are on this "mixed-use" craze, and in the process we are being burdened with an overabundce of retail. The land could have been much better used to create a complex like Chelsea Piers in Manhattan or maybe even a museum complex.

I think mixed-use is the approach to use, but it would be more appropriate in a central location where people already live. I think most all the land north of the 101 should have been left alone - that ship has already sailed, though.

[Valley Native]

Originally Posted by silverbear

I've never been there, but I've driven by. The design is nice, but it looks terrible surrounded by vacant land. While I embrace walkable, mixed-use development, a sprawlish location is not the best place for it. I'd feel so much better about CN if it had been an infill project in a more central location and better served by transit.

Despite my dislike of CN and the City's incentives toward the developers, I feel sorry for some of the independent merchants who have set up shop there. Stores like Press, Haus, and Little Artika are distinctive local business that make CN potentially more interesting than chain-dominated developments like Desert Ridge and Tempe Marketplace. Unfortunately, I don't know how many of those businesses will survive given the Goldwater Institute's ongoing lawsuit and the withdrawal of Nordstrom from the project. Even though i disagree with their choice of location, I hope those independent businesses can make it.

It was a ridiculous concept ... at least the location part. This is yet another example of how development here is too sporadic. In a way it reminds me of Westgate in the sense that it's a massive shopping/entertainment complex built in the exurbs to where people have to drive miles and miles and miles and miles, and endure wide swaths of ugly vacant land surrounding it. Not attractive at all!

Furthermore, I completely understand why the Goldwater Institute is ticked off. Taxpayer money was used to subsidize CityNorth, and our Mayor approved it. Private enterprise projects like CityNorth or Westgate should never be financed with public subsidies. Now that Nordstrom has bailed out of CityNorth, and the Coyotes might leave Westgate, both developments are facing huge shortfalls ... and guess who will be stuck with the bill for the construction of these monstrosities???

I also thought Gordon was for INFILL projects ... but it turns out that he's just as much of a sprawl freak as Rimsza was. It's high time to quite sprawling our way to prosperity. This has proven that it can no longer work without serious consequences. Fill up the many vacant parcels in the urban/suburban areas and build UPWARD!

[Robert A]

...and City North goes out with a whimper? Say goodbye to Bloomingdale's and Macy's.

Bloomindale's, Macy's pull out of CityNorth

[andrzejn]

Originally Posted by Robert A

...and City North goes out with a whimper? Say goodbye to Bloomingdale's and Macy's.

Bloomindale's, Macy's pull out of CityNorth

This one hurts

[fcorrales80]

The Bloomingdale's should open at CityScape, Scottsdale Waterfront, or maybe even Arrowhead...Westgate???

[synapse]

Originally Posted by fcorrales80

The Bloomingdale's should open at CityScape, Scottsdale Waterfront, or maybe even Arrowhead...Westgate???

My guess is it will show up somewhere near Scottsdale Fashion Center. CityScape would be terrific - I would love to see that kind of development downtown and that really would be the catalyst to push downtown over the hump to more of an urban landscape - but somehow I don't think they'll make that leap. It'd be fantastic, though. Westgate I can't see - too far away, even further than CityNorth.

I feel bad for CityNorth, in a way. The tax deal was just so much politics, and now they've built this urban street in the middle of nowhere with nothing around it. Who knows when anything will get built nearby? Nordstrom or Macy's might return someday, but by 2013, will anybody still be living in those condos or frequenting Blue Martini? Hopefully it will get some of the spill over from nearby Desert Ridge, but speaking as someone who lives near Desert Ridge, it's very disappointing. Not surprising, really, but disappointing.

[fcorrales80]

Bloomingdale's would definitely add to the vibrancy at CityScape! They so far have filled all their retail space, but for phase 2 I think there will be some room. I don't know if a department store the size of a Blomies will actually fit into CityScapes plan. I think they would have to redesign the buildings. I was just thinking outside the box. However, I can see Blomies taking over the Luhrs Building. I think it would look like an old and established department store with history. The Luhrs Building is the old brick building across from CityScape currently under renovation and preservation and attached to the Luhrs Tower.

Luhrs Building
[IMG][/IMG]

Luhrs Tower

[joninaz]

It seems Phoenix is being idiotic about this.

They lost the initial round, which seems bad on the surface, but it gets them out of their kickback obligation to the developer. So instead of using the "get out of jail" card for free, they are spending many thousands of taxpayer dollars to appeal the case to a higher court, which would again require them to spend a fortune on development costs (while screwing the other businesses in the city that don't enjoy such advantages).

In the end, win or lose, the City might and likely will spend hundreds of thousands of dollars of taxpayer money to keep appealing this case.

If this were a poker game, Phoenix would be the guy who doesn't know how to fold and look forward to the next hand, but insists on winning every hand. That guy usually ends up losing all of his money haflway through the game.