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Dateline is hardly a reliable source of information. Like all TV magazine shows, it is sensationalistic and plays up the angle that is the most dramatic rather than the most factual. I'm sorry to hear about your friends' difficulties, but how do we know their employment problems are attributable to their choice of institution? Again, I work in non-traditional higher ed, so I'm hardly objective. Nevertheless, neither I nor the people I work with spend our days trying to deliver a second-rate education. In all the institutions named in this thread, there is dedication to academic quality.
Although I'm not teaching right now, I have taught online in the past, and I can assure you it's every bit as rigorous, if not more so, than classroom instruction. I think, unfortunately, that you are reacting based on stereotypes and hearsay. Think beyond those unreliable factors and actually look at the niche that accredited non-traditional universities fill. They're extending education to populations that would normally not be served due to capacity constraints and faculty resistance at traditional institutions.
I certainly wouldn't mind having a few more liberal arts colleges in Phoenix, but I think the era of buildng new liberal arts colleges has largely passed. At this point, most new educational capacity is going to be either through expansion of existing state universities or through non-traditional, for-profit institutions. The former is going to be tough due to the recession, but there is plenty of opportunity for the latter. I'm proud to be part of that effort and I think the Phoenix Metro Area should be proud of its status as a leading center of educational innovation.
I think it's convenient to label what they did as being sensationalistic but they didn't force the university to act a certain way. It was an undercover camera and the audience could view the counselor's behavior directly.
I know my friend's difficulty stemmed from her choice of institution because she graduated with a perfect 4.0 from the university and already had her series 7 license and had worked for Schwab and couldn't get an entry level job. She received her MBA from Western International University. She regretted her choice and her large debt. I know others who graduated with an MBA from the University of Phoenix and it didn't improve their job outlook.
Maybe your curriculum at the school you taught is strong. I know the University of Phoenix MBA is a joke. I have seen the curriculum personally because I have colleagues who got one in their spare time and it was largely based on writing papers and there was a great deal of grade inflation. It wasn't difficult to get an A with minimal effort.
My question to you is very simple: if I'm an employer and I'm hiring someone, why would I hire someone from the University of Phoenix or another diploma mill when there are available candidates with great experience and degrees from real schools struggling to find a job? It's not easy to get into a top MBA program. It takes a lot of hard work and work experience to get an MBA from a reputable school meanwhile the schools you are referring accept anyone. I know people who are studying 12-15 hours a day to get a competitive GMAT score and have GPA's that are over 3.5 from reputable schools and have worked for years just so they can get into a reputable business school. I have a hard time believing any reputable company with a hiring manager from a reputable school would favor a UofP grad over one of them? It just doesn't make sense which is why my personal experience with people who have attended these schools have not been favorable.
My question to you is very simple: if I'm an employer and I'm hiring someone, why would I hire someone from the University of Phoenix or another diploma mill when there are available candidates with great experience and degrees from real schools struggling to find a job? It's not easy to get into a top MBA program. It takes a lot of hard work and work experience to get an MBA from a reputable school meanwhile the schools you are referring accept anyone. I have a hard time believing any reputable company with a hiring manager from a reputable school would favor a UofP grad over one of them? It just doesn't make sense which is my personal experience with people who have attended these schools have not been favorable.
In your rush to use the slur "diploma mill" as much as possible in describing these institutions, you're missing the point about the type of students who typically enroll at non-traditional colleges and universities. Someone who is looking for a completely new career with a new employer is probably going to look for a prestigious brand name on the diploma. When employers recruit externally and sift through resumes, there's no doubt that prestige can make a difference.
Nevertheless, the majority of students at institutions like WIU, University of Phoenix, Grand Canyon, etc. don't fit that classification. Instead, they are typically students who are already far along in their careers and who often attend with tuition support from their employers. Those students aren't in need of a prestigious brand name on their diplomas. They need a relevant education that marries theory and practice. They need a degree program that is structured so that it can be completed without career interruption or relocation. For years, traditional institutions have been sluggish to respond to those workforce needs. In Phoenix, however, the dearth of traditional institutions has created an opportunity for educational entrepreneurship, and now those innovative Phoenix-based institutions are responding to similar needs all across the nation.
In your rush to use the slur "diploma mill" as much as possible in describing these institutions, you're missing the point about the type of students who typically enroll at non-traditional colleges and universities. Someone who is looking for a completely new career with a new employer is probably going to look for a prestigious brand name on the diploma. When employers recruit externally and sift through resumes, there's no doubt that prestige can make a difference.
Nevertheless, the majority of students at institutions like WIU, University of Phoenix, Grand Canyon, etc. don't fit that classification. Instead, they are typically students who are already far along in their careers and who often attend with tuition support from their employers. Those students aren't in need of a prestigious brand name on their diplomas. They need a relevant education that marries theory and practice. They need a degree program that is structured so that it can be completed without career interruption or relocation. For years, traditional institutions have been sluggish to respond to those workforce needs. In Phoenix, however, the dearth of traditional institutions has created an opportunity for educational entrepreneurship, and now those innovative Phoenix-based institutions are responding to similar needs all across the nation.
In hindsight, I owe you an apology. You worked at one of these schools and so it is disrespectful for me to call it a diploma mill. You have been patient with me and I would be upset if someone kept referring to a school I worked with as a diploma mill. That was wrong of me and I recognize my behavior was unsettling. I will give you the benefit of the doubt regarding your institution because you are someone I respect and I would never think you were lying. But if you are referring to the University of Phoenix, I can't agree with you. I agree that many who attend these universities are people who are currently working and have experience. However, it's not true that ASU and universities don't accomodate working people. Maybe they don't do it to the degree that the schools you are referring to do but they have night and weekend classes. The ASU extension campuses were particularly good about targeting these students. And most companies don't exclusivey limit their employees to the University of Phoenix. People choose the University of Phoenix and other similar universities because they can be completed in a shorter period of time and they allow for on-line credits so people can complete these at home. These universities provide grade inflation and essays and papers in exchange for exams or they provide exams on-line which the student is held to an honor system. And not everyone who attends these schools fit the description you provided. Many are in fact misinformed and believe that just any MBA or college degree will make them competitive for certain jobs. Their commercials certainly market this way and try to provide the impression that one can get an MBA in a year and achieve this amazing job. I'm passionate because I try to be a consumer advocate and I sincerely believe the schools you refer to prey on people who want an education by providing instant gratification. I'm not against all trade schools. I grew up knowing people who attended a vocational school to learn traits like welding, auto repair etc and those schools are legitimate in my opinion.
Thanks, but it's not about me. It's about seeing higher education in terms of stereotypes shaped by unreliable sources and anecdotal impressions. Ultimately, we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to see the prevalence of non-traditional universities in Phoenix as a weakness. I see it as an innovative industry in which our city is a national leader.
Silverbear you are right on...however I am finding that arguing with a doctor about economic viability and reality is somewhat impossible...LOL! I guess that is why I don't go to my pediatrist to get financial or business management consultations. LOL, LOL, azriver I am being somewhat facetious but making a point as well.
UofP is a school that is heavily favored by employers to wish to promote an employee from within. One of its major goals is to educate and award degrees to experienced employees. So, you ask, what hiring manager would choose a UofP graduate, well the hiring manager who knows the internal employee who has worked for the company for many years, knows the in and outs of the business, and attended the UofP in order to advance and was taught application of knowledge with upper management styles. Traditional universities offer rigorous courses and much more detailed instruction because most students at a traditional school are starting from nothing and most have little experience in the profession they are seeking employment.
First of all, using the term "nation's No. 2 financial center" is vague and says nothing. Are you ranking a city according to its transactions and assets or the number of banks and activity? A city could have one large bank (Bank of America) and no other real banks and suddenly be ranked as the "no 2 financial center" due to its assets. A bank's assets are often counted where its headquarters is located although that same bank could have more employees in another city.
Assests have nothing to do with being a financial center doc, this is taught in upper division economic and accounting classes...did you take many of those in med school? LOL, I joke...kind of. No, it has nothing to do with assets or where employees work. It is much more complicated and has far more implications then where a bank owns a highrise.
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Originally Posted by azriverfan.
You are not informed on this topic because I do research for a living. TGen and IGC are in its infancy and to argue that Phoenix is home to the some of the largest medical research firms in the country is misinformation and hyperbole to say the least. UofA and ASU are second to a lot of universities and that's putting it mildly. The University of Arizona doesn't even include all medical fellowships because they don't have the research and the academic staff to support those programs. The University of Arizona is not thought of as medical research powerhouse. It's not even in the top 20. ASU's medical research is in its infancy. I helped create the curriculum for the new school so I can tell you firsthand that it has a long way to go. Again, I'm excited by the opportunities we have but what you are stating is propaganda and not the facts regarding the research scene in Phoenix.
I am not only talking about medical research; I am including business, nursing, engineering, manufacturing, global supply chain management, sustainability, communication, aerospace, space exploration, and on and on and on in which ASU and the UofA DO rank in the top 20 and top 10 frequently. Many times trading the number one position with each other. IGC and TGen are also engaged and have been granted funding that other medical research firms were seeking but lost out.
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Originally Posted by azriverfan.
This is the 5th largest city in the country so of course we are going to having companies however relative to other cities this size or even to some smaller markets, they have more companies and more importantly moreFortune 500 companies and 1000 companies. Listing our largest employers proves nothing.
Most of this is situational. Phoenix is a new city...founded in 1881, whereas Phily was incorporated in 1682...having a 199 year head start in growing companies gives older east coast cities quite an advantage...same with California cities and well most of the nation really. Phoenix did not start growing into a major or even minor city until the 1950's. At that time Phoenix had roughly 150,000 (rounding up a lot) while other cities like Phily already had milllions. Phily had over 2 million residents at one time but has declined to below 1.5 million because of its lack luster economic performance and crime rate. Despite all those great universities in Phily, no amount of brain trust has been able to save it from urban decline. This can be said of many "rust belt" cities and older midwestern cities as well. It is much easier for a person or family to relocate than a major headquarters. Therefore, it is unrealistic to expect to "attract" Fortune 500 or 1000 companies from another city since this type of move is extremely rare. However, fostering Phoenix' small and medium business firms is a must. Phoenix is a major player for successful small and medium businesses.
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Originally Posted by azriverfan.
This is called picking and choosing certain information and extropalating a theme from it. Phoenix is well known for it's semiconductor industry. That isn't a secret. However, why don't we compare other industries such as banking, software, accounting etc. The point is other cities have a more diversified market in which they have a strong IT presence but other industry as well and that has been the criticism of the valley.
Not picking or choosing anything. Phoenix is the 3rd largest semiconductor manufacturing metro in the U.S. that is a fact. Phoenix ranks in the top 20 for many high tech professions. Should it do better, you bet, but that will come with time as this city comes into maturity.
Your legislature can't see the forest for the trees. Yes, you'll lose some tax dollars, but you make it up in other taxable areas.
That article you posted is from June 2008 and is very antiquated as Phoenix has won firms from other states like New Mexico. Our economic strategy for attracting solar is coming into shape despite the recession and when that happens, smaller, sparsely populated states like New Mexico and cloudy Oregon will have little chance of competing.
There is already investment in Arizona from overseas companies from Spain, Germany, Israel, Saudi Arabia, etc. This is expected to expand since the mayor of Phoenix has recently signed economic agreements with other countries and powerhouse cities like Dubai.
Thanks, but it's not about me. It's about seeing higher education in terms of stereotypes shaped by unreliable sources and anecdotal impressions. Ultimately, we'll have to agree to disagree. You seem to see the prevalence of non-traditional universities in Phoenix as a weakness. I see it as an innovative industry in which our city is a national leader.
I don't see 60 minutes, the Arizona Republic and my personal experience as being unreliable sources but we will agree to disagree on that. It's not that I see them as a weakness. All cities have them including ones with several universities. However, I don't think we should approach them as a substitute for formal education. I don't think we should spend our effort trying to further develop that industry and should instead strive for creating a private liberal arts university however challenging it may seem. There really isn't an option for that type of education in this city, I think you and I both agree on that aspect even if we disagree regarding the other institutions. I place a lot of value in education and it's suprising to me how there isn't this sense of pride or shame that this great city doesn't strive for more in regards to higher education. I know I probably wasn't the only one who asked where are all the other universities besides ASU when they first moved here? And by saying that, it's not a slam against ASU but I think Phoenix needs it's version of Rice University, Case Western, Rhodes, etc for those who desire a different approach to education. My focus isn't to complain but rather to get people charged up and passionate about creating something that isn't here in the same way residents wanted light rail, an amusement park, an urbanized downtown etc. Let's add education to that list of aspired goals. It seems like when the community wants something, they get it done.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 05-29-2009 at 02:02 AM..
Assests have nothing to do with being a financial center doc, this is taught in upper division economic and accounting classes...did you take many of those in med school? LOL, I joke...kind of. No, it has nothing to do with assets or where employees work. It is much more complicated and has far more implications then where a bank owns a highrise.
You are just reaching after you couldn't provide a valid response. It's not more complicated than that. Your entire argument as to why Charlotte is no. 2 is because of its assets which is essentially tied to one Bank of America which happens to have the most assets and its headquarters happens to be in Charlotte. That's your entire argument in a nutshell. Your use of the term "financial center" is subjective and can mean various things depending on how its used. You can argue that it refers to assets but others generally refer to it as where the jobs and employees are located. I'm sorry but Chicago, Boston, and San Francisco beats out Charlotte in this sense. The Global Financial Centers Index ranks the top financial centers in the world every year and Chicago, Boston, San Francisco and Washington D.C. are on this list. Charlotte isn't even in the top 20. Did they teach you about this index in business school?
I am not only talking about medical research; I am including business, nursing, engineering, manufacturing, global supply chain management, sustainability, communication, aerospace, space exploration, and on and on and on in which ASU and the UofA DO rank in the top 20 and top 10 frequently. Many times trading the number one position with each other. IGC and TGen are also engaged and have been granted funding that other medical research firms were seeking but lost out.
They are not even top 20 in regards to total research. Again, you post what you want to believe yet never have facts to back it up. Unlike you I did the research for you. http://mup.asu.edu/research2008.pdfFirst (broken link) Arizona is just outside the top 20 but is weak in regards to private funding. I like you fcorrales but you have a habit of exaggerating as you did above..I don't think you understand how research works. I'm proud of IGC and TGen but other cities have far more in terms of biomedical research and companies.
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Most of this is situational. Phoenix is a new city...founded in 1881, whereas Phily was incorporated in 1682...having a 199 year head start in growing companies gives older east coast cities quite an advantage...same with California cities and well most of the nation really. Phoenix did not start growing into a major or even minor city until the 1950's.
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Therefore, it is unrealistic to expect to "attract" Fortune 500 or 1000 companies from another city since this type of move is extremely rare. However, fostering Phoenix' small and medium business firms is a must. Phoenix is a major player for successful small and medium businesses.
It's not unreleastic to expect those companies to open branches and create a presence here. I'm not asking them to relocate their headquarters here. Other cities have been more successful than Phoenix in doing just such as Dallas Ft. Worth.
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Not picking or choosing anything. Phoenix is the 3rd largest semiconductor manufacturing metro in the U.S. that is a fact. Phoenix ranks in the top 20 for many high tech professions. Should it do better, you bet, but that will come with time as this city comes into maturity.
You are in the sense that you are using that fact to somehow suggest our economy is fine and that we don't need to diversify and that everyone else is just being jaded or misinformed. I agree with you. I think the future is bright but I don't want us to get complacent. We need to be honest and acknowledge our weaknesses and be aggressive about addressing them.
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Traditional universities offer rigorous courses and much more detailed instruction because most students at a traditional school are starting from nothing and most have little experience in the profession they are seeking employment
Where did you receive your training? Most MBA programs require a minimum of 2-3 years of job experience to qualify to apply but many of it's applicants have far more experience than that. It's sad because I'm physician yet I feel like I know more about this than you. This is very basic knowledge.
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So, you ask, what hiring manager would choose a UofP graduate, well the hiring manager who knows the internal employee who has worked for the company for many years, knows the in and outs of the business, and attended the UofP in order to advance and was taught application of knowledge with upper management styles.
So every person who gets their MBA from the University of Phoenix is someone who can't quality for an executive level position unless they satisfy HR's rule of having an MBA to qualify for their position. Again, I'm sure that accounts for some people but there are a lot of second career individuals who are out of work or want to transition to another industry in addition to doctors who think they can manage their practice more efficiently by getting an MBA. I'm not really concerned with your opinon of me because I don't know many credible business professionals who would defend the value of a University of Phoenix MBA. I respect you enough to give you the benefit of the doubt and accuse you of just being argumentative because I don't believe you are genuinely this ignorant.Obviously, you are going to receive more support than me here regarding this issue because Silverbear worked for one of these schools and this is a general forum in which people are probably attending this school. However, post your opinion on a Vault.com forum regarding the value of a University of Phoenix MBA and see what type of reception you get. Obiously, you won't do that because you know your own colleague will laugh at you for making statements like: "contrary to your popularly held belief that UofP grads are not sought after, I opine differently" Start a thread entitled, "University of Phoenix MBA's are valuable" and see how other MBA graduates and pusuants respond to your post.
Last edited by azriverfan.; 05-29-2009 at 03:44 AM..
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LOL, I joke...kind of. No, it has nothing to do with assets or where employees work. It is much more complicated and has far more implications then where a bank owns a highrise.
