why is the traffic problem so bad in the Phoenix area? (to live, zoned)

[annie7]

"If only someone could "secure" my job and/or
let me to freely choose my job. And make
housing affordable or "safe" near my workplace.
I might be near my workplace one day but the next
time it might be more than 50 miles away. Need
the work. And with the current house situation
(it is either too expensive the last time or
I am now stuck right now). Even if I can move
what about the rest of the family.
I thought the "older" houses have bigger
lots. And yes in the "good" old days where
many jobs in big companies where jobs are for
"life" and family generation that is possible
Possibilities:
- get rich (nope)
- retire (cannot afford too)
- rent (possible)
- telecommute (not in my line of work)
- wait for technologies (Beam me up scotty
or fly to work)
- wait for world class public transport and (maybe
live like 'sardines' in places like Tokyo/Osaka,
Singapore, parts of Europe)
- ..... (still looking)

The high density issue has been deal nicely by Ritchie_az"


landbox...i love what you said. I work with African immigrant children and absolutley love it. My job will be over however, at the end of June. You are so right about choices. We live in a complicated world and it won't get any simpler. The ideal thing would be to have great public transportation that reaches every part of the city and surrounding areas.

[aoeu00]

I live in Gilbert. I think Gilbert was (over the last few years) trying to allocate more business type zoning. There are some nice buildings. The 1st that comes to mind is the one north off the 202 at Val Vista before you get to the Costco there. It's a shame that it sits mostly empty (as far as I can tell). There are commercial business buildings built out here but no companies will come to them. Then there's a business zone right south of the Target at Gilbert/Germann. That seems mostly empty, too. I think the companies like being in central Phoenix because people come from all over the valley to get there. I bet commercial rent must be rock bottom, too. Sign a business lease for several years at near bottom lease rates?

[Saradance]

I have to disagree. Arizona's traffic is a breeze compared to many other major cities. Try LA where it can take an hour to go 3 miles. That is traffic.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

First you said:



Then you said:



All of the "higher density" cities you listed (with, perhaps, the exceptions of Portland, Maine, and Columbus, OH, which aren't really an apples-to-apples comparison) have worse traffic than Phoenix. If "higher density" means less traffic, then why do those high density cities have the worst traffic? Seems to me that having higher density actually equates to worse traffic, not better.

BTW, I've lived in San Diego, L.A. basin, San Fran, Seattle, Dallas and Houston, and they all have worse traffic than Phoenix.

The short answer is they have crappy mass transit options and their (still) relatively low densities and development patterns are not transit oriented (e.g. businesses, retail, & residential are zoned far apart from each other, encouraging car travel). Los Angeles has begun to put in mass transit and done more mixed use zoning, but it can only be done here and there since it was originally built for an auto-centric lifestyle.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by mhouse2001

Increased density here coupled with the wonderful grid system of roads would accomplish much for relieving traffic IF people used public transportation. I've been arguing since the 80s that Phoenix "blew it" by allowing itself to grow so large in land area. When I moved here in 85 I was amazed at how spread out it all was, thinking that everybody missed out on a wonderful opportunity to create a vibrant city with taller buildings (and two story houses!) to take advantage of the desert mountain views while creating shady spots to keep cool. But...nothing was going to stop the spread of the city since there were no geographic limitations and with farmland in all directions, economics dictated that developers would push the metro area outwards. That being said, the population here apparently had no problem living 30 miles from their workplaces and now we have a metro area about 80 miles across. Phoenix itself is 46 x 22 miles.

There have been so many "I'm moving to Phoenix" threads where people say they want to live in Anthem or Avondale or Gilbert and don't blink an eye at the enormity of their commute. Do people really like living in their cars?

Rule #1 of living here: Live Near Your Job. Otherwise, your complaints about traffic should fall on deaf ears.

I mostly agree with you. The only problem with living near your job is that it's not always that easy. Since no one works at the same location for any length of time, and jobs are spread out all over the place, it's not so easy to live near your job. It's doubly difficult when there are 2 earners in a household.

But I do agree...a lot of people don't think twice about commuting long distances. It seems many don't even try to live and work within reasonably close proximity.

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by landbox

I would love to live in your ideal world.
If only someone could "secure" my job and/or
let me to freely choose my job. And make
housing affordable or "safe" near my workplace.

The high density issue has been deal nicely by Ritchie_az

Your point is well taken. I conceded this point in my previous post. But like I said, a lot of people don't even try to live close. Others are too obsessed with living in a giant house that they never spend any time in because they're spending all thier time working and commuting.

This is where the issue of land use planning comes in. And, in my reply to Ritchie, I mentioned that big problem in the cities I mentioned was that they still suffer from poor land use planning. Retail, offices & residential all need to be zoned much closer to each other.

Los Angeles is relatively high density and is now trying to put in transit and transit oriented development after the fact. It works a lot better if you do that kind of development when a city is reasaonbly small (say 100,000 to 250,000 people). When you wait until a city or metro area has 1,000,000 or more peple, transit oriented development can only be done in an expensive, half *ssed, hodge-podge manner.

[Ritchie_az]

The short answer is they have crappy mass transit options and their (still) relatively low densities and development patterns are not transit oriented (e.g. businesses, retail, & residential are zoned far apart from each other, encouraging car travel). Los Angeles has begun to put in mass transit and done more mixed use zoning, but it can only be done here and there since it was originally built for an auto-centric lifestyle.

OK, but those places have higher densities than Phoenix and more mass transit than Phoenix. So why do they have worse traffic? So do higher densities and more mass transit reduce traffic congestion or not? According to your logic, Phoenix should have worse traffic than those cities, but Phoenix's traffic congestion is minimal compared to them. Why is that? Sounds to me that the opposite of what you are saying is true.

[phoenixscorpiogirl]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

But that's the thing. Do you really think people want to live packed like sardines and do you really think people want to ride the bus? People like their private property. People like the convenience and comfort of their cars. Most people don't want to take the bus... and most people don't take the bus. That's why the urban pack-'em-in-and-take-the-bus model doesn't work... and especially won't work in the wide open West. The only situations where that model "works" is in places like downtown NYC where they've made the situation so miserably bad that it can actually be better to live like that. But if parking and traffic wasn't so outrageous there, people would own and drive cars, no doubt.

Taking the bus sucks b/c of all the weirdos and drunks on there!

[phoenixscorpiogirl]

[quote=miamiman;13762087]If you think Phoenix is a pain to get around for its size, try Tucson. Phoenix at least has freeways.

Miamiman, I said the exact same thing about Tucson earlier too! (Check page 4) lol
I do agree with you!! I hate driving around Tucson, especially to go east-West!

[mysticaltyger]

Originally Posted by Ritchie_az

OK, but those places have higher densities than Phoenix and more mass transit than Phoenix. So why do they have worse traffic? So do higher densities and more mass transit reduce traffic congestion or not? According to your logic, Phoenix should have worse traffic than those cities, but Phoenix's traffic congestion is minimal compared to them. Why is that? Sounds to me that the opposite of what you are saying is true.

I can't say for all of them. But having lived in Sacramento, I can tell you the transit there is terrible. Like I said, the key is in how things are zoned. For the most part, those places are zoned in the same kind of way Phoenix is, with residental far away from retail and businesses and no centralized employment area. If that's the kind of development you have, you're right, density won't help much.

But also like I said, all the places I mentioned are roughly equal to Phoenix in their lack of decent mass transit.