Official Pittsburgh neighborhoods which don't exist (Chester, Wilkinsburg: co-op, houses, construction)

[eschaton]

Coming off of the "real Pittsburgh Neighborhoods" map I'm working on, I'm wondering what neighborhoods of Pittsburgh people think are merely "paper neighborhoods" with no sense of identity.

My own personal thoughts.

100% not real:

Chateau - An entirely industrial "neighborhood" with only 11 people. While I think it's possible to have neighborhoods in Pittsburgh which are mainly non-residential (Strip District, Downtown, or West End, for example), the layout of Chateau is mostly industrial or corporate complexes separated by parking garages on the far side of the Ohio River Boulevard.

South Shore - See the example above. Station square is successful in its own way, but besides this, there's nothing there but some industrial properties along East Carson. Basically part of the South Side, which I think will become more clear once the still fairly blighted portion of the South Side west of the 10th Street Bridge gets redeveloped.

Arlington Heights/Saint Clair - While both these areas clearly were historically neighborhoods centered on housing projects, the projects are gone, with both areas having a population of around 200. Arlington Heights is back to just being part of Arlington, IMHO, and the little single-family bit of Saint Clair left standing is basically part of Mount Oliver.

Plausible:

Upper/Central/Lower Lawrenceville - Having been a Lawrenceville resident for five years now, while there are real differences between the areas, the communal identity for Lawrenceville is far stronger. Although geographically separated, there is no real difference between Central and most of Lower Lawrenceville. The segment of Lower Lawrenceville between Penn and Liberty is quite different, but in my experience this is a "no man's land" which doesn't identify with Bloomfield or Lawrenceville. Upper Lawrenceville has a stronger division from Central, which may become stronger in the coming decade, but at the moment I think the communal Lawrenceville identity is still stronger.

Squirrel Hill North/South - There are real differences as you travel from North to South Squirrel Hill. However, Forbes is not the major dividing line, as there is a general gradation to smaller, lower-quality housing as you travel south (until you get to recent infill toward the river). If there was any dividing line, I'd put it at Forward, with Squirrel Hill south of that line pretty much seamlessly merging into Greenfield.

Homewood West/North/South - While I can't say I spend much time in Homewood, in terms of both geography and neighborhood character there is no evidence of division based upon the lines that Pittsburgh recognizes. I don't think the Homewood community groups draw any such distinctions either

Point Breeze North - I spend a fair amount of time in this area due to trips to the co-op and Construction Junction. I'd say it's a hybrid, with the residential areas to the West more akin to Point Breeze, but the industrial zone past Lexington more like the adjoining area of Wilkinsburg. On the whole it's pretty much just a slightly seedier part of Point Breeze however.

Debatable:

West Oakland - While a definable area, there is no real sense of "community" here. There are essentially three segments - the overwhelmingly black section adjoining uptown, the overwhelmingly black section adjoining Terrace Village, and the portions of the Pitt and Carlow campuses within the neighborhood, along with a thin strip of housing on Chesterfield Road, which is overwhelmingly white. None of these three areas have much to do with one another. The only reason why I think that, on the balance, West Oakland deserves to be saved is because the Hill District's neighborhoods are fairly well-defined, and despite being next to Terrace Village, the character of West Oakland is different (houses, not projects). If you view the Hill as one neighborhood, however, West Oakland is clearly a part of it.

Calfornia-Kirkrbride - Due to the sheer number of missing teeth, plus the disruption of the neighborhood by the Postal facility, cemetary, and large swathes of open land, it's arguable it's past the point of no return in terms of a cohesive neighborhood.

Overbrook - On the whole, Pittsburgh's southern suburban neighborhoods are pretty concrete, with borders formed by the runs, which later were where the major commercial thoroughfares were built. Overbrook is the exception. The neighborhood is cut into two by Route 51, with the western half further cut again by rail tracks, the South Busway, and Route 58 in close succession. The fates of the sections are rapidly diverging as well, as east Overbrook declines in tandem with adjacent Carrick (which it has no natural boundary with), while West and South Overbrook are relatively stable like adjoining Brookline.

Anyway, any thoughts?

[barneyg]

I think the phrase "real neighborhood" is dependent on your definition of a neighborhood. If you're set on a definition based on social networks, then obviously places like Chateau, South Shore/Station Square (and expanding outside the city, the Waterfront, McKnight Road around Ross Park Mall, etc) are not neighborhoods. In that case I would assume your map would have significant parts of the city that are not part of a neighborhood at all. On the other hand if you're using a more general definition of a geographically/spatially cohesive unit, some of those places are definitely neighborhoods. Using that definition, Chateau and Station Square are much more clearly defined as neighborhoods than most contiguous residential areas, some of which you identify in the "plausible" category.

In any case, I think Bloomfield/Friendship belongs in the "debatable" category at the very least but they're a bit of a special case in that the official areas don't match common perception (when I think of Friendship I think of Atlantic/Pacific Ave first but neither is officially in Friendship). Regent Square is yet another special case where the official name designation doesn't match the commonly accepted area (although in that case, it's because the neighborhood spans multiple municipalities).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by barneyg

I think the phrase "real neighborhood" is dependent on your definition of a neighborhood. If you're set on a definition based on social networks, then obviously places like Chateau, South Shore/Station Square (and expanding outside the city, the Waterfront, McKnight Road around Ross Park Mall, etc) are not neighborhoods. In that case I would assume your map would have significant parts of the city that are not part of a neighborhood at all. On the other hand if you're using a more general definition of a geographically/spatially cohesive unit, some of those places are definitely neighborhoods. Using that definition, Chateau and Station Square are much more clearly defined as neighborhoods than most contiguous residential areas, some of which you identify in the "plausible" category.

The problem with the later definition is it can be totally arbitrary. If you're just looking at a geographically cohesive unit, for example, you could lump together a huge band of the East End from Bloomfield out to Wilkensburg, as the area lacks any geographic divisions, having a continuous street grid which is only modestly broken up by things like the busway, commercial development, etc.

I think the status of a neighborhood comes down to two questions.


1. What do the local stakeholders identify as? In most cases, this means residents, but in the case of commercial/industrial areas, business owners need to be taken into account as well. Even before the Strip started attracting residential investment again, for example, Neighbors in the Strip was working towards neighborhood improvement at the impetus of local business. The West End, which only has a few hundred residents now, has a similar dynamic. The existence of walkable corridors through both neighborhoods cannot be ignored. In contrast, Chateau is a totally unwalkable manufacturing area. The only "community focused" business I am aware of is the Manchester Craftsmens Guild, which, as you can see by the name, is actually involved in another neighborhood entirely.

2. A second concern is the degree to which the members of a neighborhood actually interact. West Oakland, as I said, has a lot of Pitt and some Carlow housing, and a whole bunch of 80%-90% black blocks back in the residential section. Perhaps a lot of the black population works in Oakland, but the links between the two poles are pretty limited. A similar point could be made with Uptown, which appears to be a "balanced" neighborhood in practice, but in actuality it's the Duquense campus melded on to what is a largely black neighborhood.

Originally Posted by barneyg

In any case, I think Bloomfield/Friendship belongs in the "debatable" category at the very least but they're a bit of a special case in that the official areas don't match common perception (when I think of Friendship I think of Atlantic/Pacific Ave first but neither is officially in Friendship).

I agree. However, no one, City or residents, disagree both exist. The debate is where to draw the line. One could make parallels with Squirrel Hill here, where as I said the border was arbitrary, but typically identity with North or South Squirrel Hill ends when someone asks where someone lives and they say ___ of Forbes.

Originally Posted by barneyg

Regent Square is yet another special case where the official name designation doesn't match the commonly accepted area (although in that case, it's because the neighborhood spans multiple municipalities).

True enough. There are other examples as well, but ones which don't get as much play. For example, East Carnegie, way out in the West End, has a funny border with Carnegie proper, with the Pittsburgh border going through residential blocks. If you look on a map you'll see that a small portion of Carnegie (on the far side of 376) is effectively part of East Carnegie's neighborhood.

[Herodotus]

With West Oakland, most of the people who live west of Robinson St., consider themselves to be residents of the Hill. In fact, the Hill has come to include everything between the rivers, south of Bigelow Blvd., and between Oakland, and Downtown, except for the Bluff, which is the section south of Forbes, out to Jumonville St., and where Duquesne U., and Mercy Hospital are located. Another area of disputed borders is between Oakland, and Squirrel Hill. If you look at the old plate maps from 150 years ago, you will see that the eastern border of Oakland Twp. was Junction Hollow. Of course, that would place all of CMU in Squirrel Hill, which some feel is where it truly is anyway.

[FreightTrainRunning]

Of course, that would place all of CMU in Squirrel Hill, which some feel is where it truly is anyway.

CMU is officially part of Squirrel Hill North.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

With West Oakland, most of the people who live west of Robinson St., consider themselves to be residents of the Hill.

Not surprising. However, there really isn't an alternate name for this area is there? It's a bit unwieldy to say West Oakland is part of the Hill District.

Originally Posted by Herodotus

In fact, the Hill has come to include everything between the rivers, south of Bigelow Blvd., and between Oakland, and Downtown,

This isn't quite true. People don't often realize this, but part of Polish Hill is on the far side of Bigelow. The area is still mostly white as well. If you look on a map, it's the cluster of streets which only connect to the rest of the Hill by Herron and Webster.

Originally Posted by Herodotus

except for the Bluff, which is the section south of Forbes, out to Jumonville St., and where Duquesne U., and Mercy Hospital are located.

What would you call the "Hill" section of the City's Bluff? Uptown?

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Not surprising. However, there really isn't an alternate name for this area is there? It's a bit unwieldy to say West Oakland is part of the Hill District.



This isn't quite true. People don't often realize this, but part of Polish Hill is on the far side of Bigelow. The area is still mostly white as well. If you look on a map, it's the cluster of streets which only connect to the rest of the Hill by Herron and Webster.



What would you call the "Hill" section of the City's Bluff? Uptown?

Uptown is between Forbes and Colwell, out to Jumonville. Past Jumonville is Soho. All are considered part of the "greater Hill District". I'm a Duquesne alum, and the campus has always been considered to be on the Bluff. Uptown is separate from the Bluff.

A lot of people would dispute what the city considers to be the western border of Oakland. Hill residents usually consider it to be Robinson St.

[Herodotus]

Originally Posted by GeneW

CMU is officially part of Squirrel Hill North.

I agree with this, but you hear people describing CMU as being in Oakland all the time.

[Evergrey]

While not part of the campus proper, CMU has several properties that are clearly within Oakland's borders. CMU is really the interface between Oakland and Squirrel Hill as opposed to belong exclusively to either.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Herodotus

Uptown is between Forbes and Colwell, out to Jumonville. Past Jumonville is Soho. All are considered part of the "greater Hill District". I'm a Duquesne alum, and the campus has always been considered to be on the Bluff. Uptown is separate from the Bluff.

I'll make the map modifications tonight here.

Originally Posted by Herodotus

A lot of people would dispute what the city considers to be the western border of Oakland. Hill residents usually consider it to be Robinson St.

No, I understand that. My point is that the Hill District has five official neighborhoods, which most people agree are legitimate divisions. If you don't view the Hill District as one neighborhood, and you don't think Oakland West of Robinson should be part of Bedford Dwellings (EDIT - Terrace Village) (which I think is self-evident, as it's not projects), than you either need a new name for it, or need to just keep calling it "West Oakland" despite being part of the Hill.