Why Pittsburgh's schools aren't that bad... (Washington, Millvale: middle-class, houses, public school)

[entropyconcentrated]

Originally Posted by eschaton

...

You'd run into much the same issues virtually anywhere there was a non-trivial minority population.

Let's be clear here - suburban schools have not solved the "test gap problem" - they deal with it largely by not having black kids to begin with. In most of the schools which actually have enough of a racially mixed population to compare, if the test score gap is low, it's more due to white test scores being unusually low than black scores being high. Pittsburgh is really the only place in the region where you have a few schools where both the white and the black population can both overachieve.

This is so bizarre, and endemic to Pittsburghers.

It seems like the lack of exposure to a more diverse climate perpetuates this thinking. And this line of thought is problematic because it affects decision makers resulting in ineffective policies that further exacerbate the problem.

Outside of Pittsburgh in cities with large minority populations, it is common to find schools that do exceedingly well that are diverse. And diverse I mean, less than 1/3 white, and even with economically disadvantaged students included. This is without exorbitant $$$/student or ultra low student/teach ratios.

Why? NUMBER ONE reason is PARENTAL involvement. Educated parents know what to push and how to push their kids. ACTIVE and educated parents support the teachers in their efforts to help those kids who need a little extra. NUMBER TWO: resources (this included teachers) Obviously, talented teachers who also get access to career-development tools for themselves are wonderful to have. But even more so, good clean safe facilities, plenty of books and extracurriculars fosters a healthy learning environment.

Pittsburgh public schools is astonishing b/c ppl seem to literally equate black with inabilty. Disgusting. Asian with genius. Rich with genius. Poor white with empathy. Rich black with distrust. It seems like Pittsburghers are myopic in this understanding.

I am sorry. I just have been looking at other cities in comparison. And it kills me because this is turning into a deal breaker.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by entropyconcentrated

This is so bizarre, and endemic to Pittsburghers.

It seems like the lack of exposure to a more diverse climate perpetuates this thinking. And this line of thought is problematic because it affects decision makers resulting in ineffective policies that further exacerbate the problem.

Outside of Pittsburgh in cities with large minority populations, it is common to find schools that do exceedingly well that are diverse. And diverse I mean, less than 1/3 white, and even with economically disadvantaged students included. This is without exorbitant $$$/student or ultra low student/teach ratios.

Why? NUMBER ONE reason is PARENTAL involvement. Educated parents know what to push and how to push their kids. ACTIVE and educated parents support the teachers in their efforts to help those kids who need a little extra. NUMBER TWO: resources (this included teachers) Obviously, talented teachers who also get access to career-development tools for themselves are wonderful to have. But even more so, good clean safe facilities, plenty of books and extracurriculars fosters a healthy learning environment.

Pittsburgh public schools is astonishing b/c ppl seem to literally equate black with inabilty. Disgusting. Asian with genius. Rich with genius. Poor white with empathy. Rich black with distrust. It seems like Pittsburghers are myopic in this understanding.

I am sorry. I just have been looking at other cities in comparison. And it kills me because this is turning into a deal breaker.

Yes, this mindset is problematic, but it is hardly limited to Pittsburgh. Really, it's the predominant attitude across the nation.

[entropyconcentrated]

Originally Posted by HeavenWood

Yes, this mindset is problematic, but it is hardly limited to Pittsburgh. Really, it's the predominant attitude across the nation.

Fair enough. It is not limited to Pittsburgh. I think I am just surprise that it is here. And so strong.

I have come to Pittsburgh to visit and meet people. This sentiment often peppers the discussion. It is hard to find a dissenting opinion. Very strange to me because it is not viewed as outmoded.


The city is heralded a the model for the future. Eds and Meds. Pittsburgh Promise. World leader in robotics and computers. Top ten research activity (billions of dollars) at UofPitt. Philanthropic foundations that amaze me.

It would seem like public education of children would be paramount, and effective.

But just the opposite. I cannot tell how many people have practically insisted the City schools should be avoided at all costs.

I had a glimmer of hope reading the stats... but then I cannot overlook the stated theme: non-asian minority children are inherently problematic. This is the part that wears me out.

[Sideblinded]

Nobody is perfect. Only one "news" station has reported this. A parent tipped them off, PPS hates this negative PR. Most of it is not reported to news stations.

" His name and condition have not been released, but officials said he is expected to survive."
That sounds serious.

Assault charges filed against student involved in fight at... | www.wpxi.com

School districts have problems we all know that. Pittsburgh has such a heavy layer of denial syndrome. They never admit anything until they are wrong & get quite upset when other public agencies, Police, EMT's and the fire department get involved.

Sadly, very few will care since this is just a kid from Oliver.

[ex-burgher]

Originally Posted by entropyconcentrated

Outside of Pittsburgh in cities with large minority populations, it is common to find schools that do exceedingly well that are diverse. And diverse I mean, less than 1/3 white, and even with economically disadvantaged students included. This is without exorbitant $$$/student or ultra low student/teach ratios.

I am sorry. I just have been looking at other cities in comparison. And it kills me because this is turning into a deal breaker.

I would like to know which cities/schools have solved the test gap problem. Here is Charlotte, we have some very diverse schools and they are attempting to and have made some tiny strides in reducing the gap, however generally black students are in the standard classes while Honors level classes are primarily white. I have not heard of a school where the black students as a whole is as high achieving as the white students

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by ex-burgher

I would like to know which cities/schools have solved the test gap problem. Here is Charlotte, we have some very diverse schools and they are attempting to and have made some tiny strides in reducing the gap, however generally black students are in the standard classes while Honors level classes are primarily white. I have not heard of a school where the black students as a whole is as high achieving as the white students

None have within the U.S. AFAIK. What you see more often is self-selection through magnet or charter programs, which have more involved parents of all races, and can help to close (but not eliminate) the test score gap in that particular school.

However, Finland has been pretty good at eliminating any gap between native and immigrant students (who come from all over the world). Recent studies suggest that the U.K. has eliminated the black-white test score gap as well.

[gg]

Originally Posted by Sideblinded

Nobody is perfect. Only one "news" station has reported this. A parent tipped them off, PPS hates this negative PR. Most of it is not reported to news stations.

Kind of interesting response from the parent.


"I'm very upset because if I send my child to school, he should be protected at all times. How is another student able to walk into a different class, to walk passed a teacher and beat another student up?" Ponton said.

Schools CAN'T stop it. How could they? Can't lock doors due to fire codes and do they expect to have a security guard in every class. They are not allowed to hire only huge male teachers because that would be considered prejudges against women or hiring small teachers. Even the police can't hire big males anymore, they have to hire based on qualifications. Many years ago the State Police hired males over 6 feet tall. Those days are long over.

Nothing schools can do to protect students with all those rules in place. Of course that parent will sue the district and win even though they aren't at fault, because they can't protect students, unless schools are run more like jails, but there are plenty of fights in jails as well.

[Katarina Witt]

Originally Posted by eschaton

None have within the U.S. AFAIK. What you see more often is self-selection through magnet or charter programs, which self-select for more involved parents of all races, which can help to close (but not eliminate) the test score gap in that particular school.

However, Finland has been pretty good at eliminating any gap between native and immigrant students (who come from all over the world). Recent studies suggest that the U.K. has eliminated the black-white test score gap as well.

I'd really like to see some numbers for that.

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by eschaton

None have within the U.S. AFAIK. What you see more often is self-selection through magnet or charter programs, which self-select for more involved parents of all races, which can help to close (but not eliminate) the test score gap in that particular school.

However, Finland has been pretty good at eliminating any gap between native and immigrant students (who come from all over the world). Recent studies suggest that the U.K. has eliminated the black-white test score gap as well.

So, one way to close the gap would be to better promote magnet schools? Or is it the mere fact that the parent(s) were involved enought to explore a magnet school as an option for their kids.

Is is race or is it merely that impoverished students are more likely to fall behind that affluent students?

I also wonder how important an intact family (mother and father still together/married) is to educational achievement. I would also think that an intact family is more affluent if for no other reason than you only have one roof to pay for, not two.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by h_curtis

Kind of interesting response from the parent.


"I'm very upset because if I send my child to school, he should be protected at all times. How is another student able to walk into a different class, to walk passed a teacher and beat another student up?" Ponton said.

Schools CAN'T stop it. How could they? Can't lock doors due to fire codes and do they expect to have a security guard in every class. They are not allowed to hire only huge male teachers because that would be considered prejudges against women or hiring small teachers. Even the police can't hire big males anymore, they have to hire based on qualifications. Many years ago the State Police hired males over 6 feet tall. Those days are long over.

Nothing schools can do to protect students with all those rules in place. Of course that parent will sue the district and win even though they aren't at fault, because they can't protect students, unless schools are run more like jails, but there are plenty of fights in jails as well.

I tend to agree with Curtis here. Propensity to violence is a cultural issue. Generally speaking, only near totalitarian levels of control can quash it, if restraint hasn't been internalized due to your parents and your peer group.

The best thing you could do is basically isolate/expel the real problem students. It will doom their lives, of course, but it might make a big difference for the majority within the school.