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In contrast, ECS students, like those at PPS magnets, are a bit self-selected since only parents who care enough about education to care have their kids get in. Thus there shouldn't be a big gap between magnet and ECS performance - but there is.
Just because a parent cares enough to get their child into a better school doesn't mean that parent is equipped to assist the child in succeeding.
I was one of the nerdiest, socially awkward kids imaginable, and I don't remember any bullying worth talking about until I went to middle school, minus harmless things like people playing "keep away" with the ball on the playground.
Of course, I was also fat back then, so maybe the other kids were worried about me sitting on them.
There are bullies in every large elementary school. They're not throwing kids in trash cans, but their words aren't harmless.
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Originally Posted by eschaton
My daughter goes to a mainly black day care, and she's picked up quite a good deal of AAVE from wanting to talk like her friends. She lengthens her vowels through diphthongs for example (the way she says down always cracks me up), she uses double negatives, and even occasionally has an intrusive "be" or "axes" me a question. She'll grow out of it when she goes to a more racially mixed school when she's older, so it doesn't phase me much. I don't think she fully sounds black, but when I'm on the bus with her I've had black people on occasion do a double take when they hear her talk.
Children learn most of their speech from their parents. You should be correcting her, just as every parent corrects their children's grammar. If you don't correct her, she might not grow out of it. It might hold her back socially. It can definitely hold her back in English class. Later in life, it could holder her back economically via job interviews.
Proper English is important to mainstream success in our society. AAVE hinders success in school and later in employment, similar to how Spanish speaking children have a more difficult time at school in states like California. And if you think of it that way, you might find a piece of the puzzle that explains why the black students aren't doing well even at the better schools---just as California's school system doesn't do as well as state school systems that don't have many English as second language speakers. Yeah, it's a sign that the school systems aren't properly meeting the needs of children who speak AAVE or a foreign language, but that's no reason to put your child at a disadvantage by not teaching her proper English.
It's okay if she speaks both, but it's important for her to learn proper English at a young age. Language problems can't be easily corrected later. I'm just blown away that you automatically assume that she'll learn how to speak proper English later, when she is in a more racially mixed school when she's older. As a parent, speech isn't something you leave for society to teach. Speech is one of the core basics that parents are supposed to provide for their children prior to entering school. Poor speech of any kind hinders success for children when they enter elementary school.
Speech is one of the core basics that parents are supposed to provide for their children prior to entering school. Poor speech of any kind hinders success for children when they enter elementary school.
We picked a daycare mostly because none of the teachers said 'yunz'.
I'm not sure why they did this but look at the note at the bottom of the chart:
"Chart includes charter school applicants from all districts. Students from district in which school is chartered get preference."
My understanding is that non-PPS kids are only placed if there are spots left over, right? So they essentially have zero chance of getting into any of these schools. In the article it says that there were 159 applicants for ECS from inside the city of Pittsburgh. That changes your odds to 1 in 12.
Those magnet odds aren't too bad. The charter odds are a darn shame for a parent who truly prefers a charter.
Keep in mind a good deal of those charters (all of the Propel ones) aren't even in PPS, so it's kind of comparing apples to oranges.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
Just because a parent cares enough to get their child into a better school doesn't mean that parent is equipped to assist the child in succeeding.
Generally speaking though, most of magnet performance can be traced to parents, not the schools itself. In places like PA, where magnets select based upon lottery, it means that parents who don't care enough to apply (or are too ignorant of their options to do so), don't play any role. In states like New York, where merit-based magnet programs are kosher, the magnet system becomes essentially an honors system within the public school system. The outcome for these kids is quite good, but studies have shown that the most borderline kids at these elite magnets typically have no better life outcomes than kids with similar test scores who went to the neighborhood schools.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
There are bullies in every large elementary school. They're not throwing kids in trash cans, but their words aren't harmless.
I'd prefer not to be lectured about bullying, considering as I said, from around 11-15 or so I was bullied pretty extensively - everything from being taunted to being spat on. My point was only that the level of such behavior is typically very low in elementary school, is incredibly high in middle school, and then falls again somewhat in high school, where people tend to find their own social networks and don't worry as much about what the wider school culture thinks about them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
Children learn most of their speech from their parents. You should be correcting her, just as every parent corrects their children's grammar. If you don't correct her, she might not grow out of it. It might hold her back socially. It can definitely hold her back in English class. Later in life, it could holder her back economically via job interviews.
Children do not learn most of their speech from their parents. They learn their speech from their friends. Do parents of immigrants continue to speak with their parents' accent? No, because they model their speech on their friends - they try hard to fit in, and fitting in means they unconsciously form their accent towards that of their peers. It's the same reason why generations of upper-class British children were sent to boarding school, had working-class governesses and middle-class teachers speak to them, and yet ended up with the same accent as their parents.
FWIW, I do correct her when she says grammatically wrong things - not only double negatives, but annoying Pittsburghisms like dropping the "to be" from sentences.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
Proper English is important to mainstream success in our society. AAVE hinders success in school and later in employment, similar to how Spanish speaking children have a more difficult time at school in states like California. And if you think of it that way, you might find a piece of the puzzle that explains why the black students aren't doing well even at the better schools---just as California's school system doesn't do as well as state school systems that don't have many English as second language speakers. Yeah, it's a sign that the school systems aren't properly meeting the needs of children who speak AAVE or a foreign language, but that's no reason to put your child at a disadvantage by not teaching her proper English.
Ironically, ESL classes actually make students less likely to learn English flawlessly. They put kids who speak broken English together in classes, and ensure they interact minimally with native speakers. As a result they tend to either stick to their home language (if enough kids are in the class who speak it), or end up speaking bad English which doesn't sound like it's from any place at all (if there are a number of different tongues spoken in the class).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopes
It's okay if she speaks both, but it's important for her to learn proper English at a young age. Language problems can't be easily corrected later. I'm just blown away that you automatically assume that she'll learn how to speak proper English later, when she is in a more racially mixed school when she's older. As a parent, speech isn't something you leave for society to teach. Speech is one of the core basics that parents are supposed to provide for their children prior to entering school. Poor speech of any kind hinders success for children when they enter elementary school.
Generally speaking, kids can flawlessly shift their accents up until age 16, and I certainly don't expect to have her enrolled in 90% black schools all the way through her K-12 education, so I am absolutely sure it will work itself out. Parents can provide access to a wide vocabulary (and indeed, she does use a lot of big words for her age), but they cannot do a thing to control for accent beyond choosing their child's peer group.
We picked a daycare mostly because none of the teachers said 'yunz'.
Perfect example!
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Originally Posted by SteelCityRising
Wow! Who peed in your Cheerios this morning?!
It was Rice Chex. No pee, but the milk wasn't as cold as I like.
Parents correcting grammar isn't as stern as it sounds. You simply say it back properly. Speaking proper grammar yourself is important too.
When I was a young adult, I got a job because I spoke proper English, or as my boss said, "The King's English." Language is an important skill, not just in school but in life. Since most language skills are learned at home, I was appalled a parent is purposely choosing to leave it up to society to teach language. And I believe we may have accidently stumbled upon why there is a gap in achievement between certain populations.
I once replied to a Craigslist ad in D.C. and when I later talked on the phone with the seller she asked if I had been educated in the U.S.
Turns out she had a bet with her husband that I was educated elsewhere because my email response to her ad was actually coherent I considered it to be more a reflection of the current ways that we communicate. People seem to have no desire to write properly in emails, text messages, etc.
When I was a young adult, I got a job because I spoke proper English, or as my boss said, "The King's English." Language is an important skill, not just in school but in life. Since most language skills are learned at home, I was appalled a parent is purposely choosing to leave it up to society to teach language. And I believe we may have accidentally stumbled upon why there is a gap in achievement between certain populations.
Where did you grow up in the area? In my experience, Pittsburghese is highly class based (as are all urban regional accents in the country), and you've admitted that you grew up in an upper-middle class background. I'm going to hazard a guess that most of your friends as a result had typically weak Pittsburgh accents. I'm also going to guess that while you sound accent-less for Pittsburgh, an outsider familiar with the local vocal quirks would still probably be able to tell.
My wife has no Pittsburgh accent to speak of, and would never use the obvious Pittsburghisms like yinz, nebby, gumband, etc. But she often slips into notable Pittsburghisms in terms of sentence structure like dropping the to be from sentences ("the car needs washed" instead of the proper "the car needs to be washed") and improperly using anymore in the positive sense ("I always seem to wear these shoes anymore") when the proper phrase is "these days." In my experience talking to professionals in the Pittsburgh area, no one who hasn't lived outside of the area notices dropping the to be at all. The other one less frequent in sentences, so I'm not as sure.
My wife has an ex who has a PHD in engineering. He is brilliant, and lives in Boston now. He grew up in Clairton, and he sounds like he grew up in Clairton, despite even taking classes as an adult to lose his accent. We really have very little control over what we end up sounding like as an adult.
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I considered it to be more a reflection of the current ways that we communicate. People seem to have no desire to write properly in emails, text messages, etc.
