Admission to Pittsburgh's charters and magnets becomes more difficult... (York: upper-class, fit in)

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by Retiredcoach

Is the education received in the charter schools better than the public schools?..... Based upon the last test results, probably not. There may be some exceptions, but if the test results are to be believed, the charter school concept seems to sell innovation and achievement .... but saying and achieving are very distinctly different.

Pittsburgh has much worse charters than ECS. It's been trying to close Career Connections here in Lawrenceville for a few years, since the kids there do worse than the local schools they were pulled from, to no avail. The problem with ECS isn't that they have amazingly low test scores, it's that they are mediocre compared to other Lower East End options, and they are getting worse.

There are many flaws in the charter system. I dislike them because along with the educational "innovation," they are almost invariably non-union facilities. Even if you dislike teacher's unions, this is a bad idea, because charters require longer hours and have much lower pay than public schools. As a result they have incredibly high turnover, with few teachers lasting more than a few years, because they all want the more stable, liveable, and lucrative public school positions. The teachers they get are generally either just out of college and very inexperienced, or ones which were fired from public schools. I think teacher quality tends to be a bit overrated (the student culture plays more of a role in performance, and teachers often have little control over this), but having lower-paid, less-experienced teachers isn't a pathway to success, even if you are forcing them to work 60-hour weeks.

But the main problem is charters are supposed to only be allowed to keep their charter if they surpass the results from the local schools. Yet inevitably the charters (which are usually backed by rich corporations with lots of lawyers) find loopholes to stay open. There was a study recently in Ohio which showed over 75% of charter schools which had their charters pulled essentially stayed open, through loopholes like the old administration forming a "new school" identical in essentially every way to the old one. As long as the system doesn't have real accountability, it just funnels money out of the public school system.

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by eschaton

Generally speaking, you don't need to worry about safety on the elementary level. Yes, there are some horror stories, but few K-5 kids are doing drugs, getting raped, involved in shootings, or even getting into physical altercations. There is zero reason to be concerned about this until the middle school level.

I think parents are frankly more worried about their kid getting bullied than shot. There is a reason to be concerned about this at just about any school.

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by eschaton

True, but everyone has their own thresholds. The explicit racists get worried as soon as a single black kid is enrolled in their child's school. Then as black enrollment increases, more and more people who aren't racist (except maybe subconsciously) start thinking "something must be wrong with this school, why else is everyone else I know leaving." The problem is that each rise in black enrollment causes the next group of people to hit their discomfort level and head for the exits. This used to also be true for neighborhoods, but while residential segregation is lessening throughout the country, I don't see any evidence it is for schooling, except in cases like Pittsburgh's magnets where policy purposefully mixes students, but ensures that only those parents who volunteer take part.

You are too quick to throw out the racist comment. I think that a lot of parents are more worried about a bunch of kids that don't care about school and who have parents that don't care about school. So, yeah they care if there are too many black students that could care less about school. They also care if there are too many white students that don't care about school.

No one would have a problem if Obama's kids went to Colfax.

[Retiredcoach]

Many of the charter school administrators are keenly aware that the dissatisfaction with the public schools goes beyond just the academics. What they are trying to sell the public is a kind of propaganda that the problems within the local communities will not exist within their school walls. Bullying, racism, poverty, intellectual disabilities will presumably all disappear (according to their fortuitous rationale) once a child enters the doors of their charter school(s). They try to sell the idea that each child will receive the quality education in an environment comparable to the finest prestigious private academies of the region (forgetting that the private schools have criteria for admission). The reality of the situation, however, is that too many of these charter schools are unable to even match the surrounding schools academically that they are so quick to demean with their "sell jobs".

Many charter school businessmen/administrators are becoming quite wealthy with their "smoke and mirrors" approach to education. Those politicians, who seek to implode the concepts of organized teachers and fully funded public education, are gratuitously benefiting from this facade currently. Changes may be in the offing, however, as test score interpretations are a standard for both public and charter, and exposing the charters' "bill of goods" being sold to the taxpaying public. "One Term Tom" (Corbett), one of our state's loudest voices for reduced public school funding/ enhanced charter school funding will soon be leaving office- all the better for those advocating for our children.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

I think parents are frankly more worried about their kid getting bullied than shot. There is a reason to be concerned about this at just about any school.

I was one of the nerdiest, socially awkward kids imaginable, and I don't remember any bullying worth talking about until I went to middle school, minus harmless things like people playing "keep away" with the ball on the playground.

Of course, I was also fat back then, so maybe the other kids were worried about me sitting on them.

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by robrobrob

You are too quick to throw out the racist comment. I think that a lot of parents are more worried about a bunch of kids that don't care about school and who have parents that don't care about school. So, yeah they care if there are too many black students that could care less about school. They also care if there are too many white students that don't care about school.

No one would have a problem if Obama's kids went to Colfax.

There's explicit racism, and subliminal racism, and they are different things.

A study a few years back, for example, filmed an identical commercial, except the store employee showed was black rather than white. Having a black employee in the film resulted in people being more critical of the commercial in general. For example, they were more likely to complain the "store looks dirty" even though the set was identical.

And studies involving implicit association tests suggest the vast majority of people hold some stereotypical beliefs, even if they aren't consciously aware of them.

In that particular case, I think it's true that no one would care if Obama's kids went to Colfax (or a suburban school in the region) because they are already a known quality. The degree to which we implicitly stereotype, however, makes us more or less likely to slot a black child who we do not know into the "couldn't care less about school" category, until the point we get to know them.

[jay5835]

Originally Posted by eschaton

The degree to which we implicitly stereotype, however, makes us more or less likely to slot a black child who we do not know into the "couldn't care less about school" category, until the point we get to know them.

It's the AAVE factor.

Not saying it's right to discriminate, but the language I expect to hear from an unfamiliar black person, particularly a young unfamiliar black person is Ebonics, now known as African American Vernacular English, which my brain rejects as a form of less-than-proper English.

African American Vernacular English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[sparrowmint]

Originally Posted by Retiredcoach

A number of school districts across Pa. filed a complaint with the Pa. Department of Education regarding the the very favorable interpretation of test score results that was being given to the charter schools only. In other words, our local school districts were dissatisfied with the fact that the standard that public schools were required to sustain was not being applied equally to the charter schools. The PDE concurred, and the standard for both public schools and the charter schools is now the same. Beginning in January 2013, the results were reported to reflect this change. As a result of this universal standard for all types of school choices, too many charter schools performed poorly. What you are seeing on sites, such as schooldigger and/or the individual charter school websites, do not yet reflect this change.

Is the education received in the charter schools better than the public schools?..... Based upon the last test results, probably not. There may be some exceptions, but if the test results are to be believed, the charter school concept seems to sell innovation and achievement .... but saying and achieving are very distinctly different.

Greatly depends on the schools being compared, and between some options, local charters can be the safer and less stressful place for a kid to go to school. Some parents weigh that heavily when not even knowing what the test score comparisons are, I've spoken to some about it. But you don't have to argue this with me. Charter schools aren't "my" answer for the American education system [and as a general concept, there are plenty of problems with them, individual successes aside], nor the local problems in varying districts (neither is the obsession with standardized tests and other issues associated with NCLB and anything that has come after).

[eschaton]

Originally Posted by jay5835

It's the AAVE factor.

Not saying it's right to discriminate, but the language I expect to hear from an unfamiliar black person, particularly a young unfamiliar black person is Ebonics, now known as African American Vernacular English, which my brain rejects as a form of less-than-proper English.

African American Vernacular English - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My daughter goes to a mainly black day care, and she's picked up quite a good deal of AAVE from wanting to talk like her friends. She lengthens her vowels through diphthongs for example (the way she says down always cracks me up), she uses double negatives, and even occasionally has an intrusive "be" or "axes" me a question. She'll grow out of it when she goes to a more racially mixed school when she's older, so it doesn't phase me much. I don't think she fully sounds black, but when I'm on the bus with her I've had black people on occasion do a double take when they hear her talk.

[robrobrob]

Originally Posted by eschaton

I was one of the nerdiest, socially awkward kids imaginable, and I don't remember any bullying worth talking about until I went to middle school, minus harmless things like people playing "keep away" with the ball on the playground.

Of course, I was also fat back then, so maybe the other kids were worried about me sitting on them.

Wait until your child enters school. Bullying is a big deal. Schools are very proactive in combating bullying. There are antibullying posters all over my sons school.

A friend of mine enrolled his daughter in a different school because of it.