Who's afraid of a Beltway? (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: income, income tax, moving)

[Lost_In_Translation]

Originally Posted by airwave09

Instead of just making driving worse during rush hours, we should be making other transportation options better so that more people choose them during those times.

I would hesitate to put the city more in debt to reduce traffic for people that want to drive anyway. The cost of commuting is time/money. Less time means more money. Less money means more time. I love in the city as commute out so I'd end up paying more, but as long as it reduced the cost of living in the city or enhanced it's features (either through lower taxes or improved transit, not to mention less debt) then I'd fully support it.

[_Buster]

Originally Posted by Lost_In_Translation

EZ Pass straight, build out toll booths off to sides.

toll booths aren't really needed at all anymore, with the right technology, the people without EZpass can get bills in the mail after just driving through the checkpoint.

[Craziaskowboi]

Originally Posted by pman

it's very expensive to overbuid infrastructure and likely not worth the expense. It's also a devastating highway inside city limits.

I've acknowledged that it was destructive to East Allegheny. With that said, there's really nothing that can be done about it, other than making sure that no other neighborhoods have giant sections leveled to make way for a highway.

Originally Posted by pman

it's intent is clearly to benefit further out areas at the expense of core areas, which is exactly what it does. more to the point, that is exactly what speculative new highway capacity does.

I really don't think that was its only intent. Before it was built, somebody driving to Pittsburgh from Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago (or even Toronto) had to either go out of their ways to enter the city on the already-overwhelmed Parkways East and West, or get caught up in the local traffic on McKnight Road and Perry Highway. Even though a large portion of East Allegheny got flattened to make way for I-279, there was very little development the rest of the way between there and I-79, so it made some sense to provide a more direct route into the city from points north or northwest. And since it connected to a national highway system, then there has to take at least superregional concerns into consideration.

It's also worth noting that widening I-376 wouldn't be "speculative" at all, because the highway is completely overwhelmed. Widening it would just be common sense, even if it was only widened to six lanes instead of eight or 10.

[Lost_In_Translation]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

Again, as an Ohio resident I would not have purchased an EZ pass or paid money to do this.

As with any change, there are benefits and costs. Inconveniencing a casual ohio traveler does not outweigh the benefit of helping improve the city infrastructure.

[Lost_In_Translation]

Originally Posted by _Buster

toll booths aren't really needed at all anymore, with the right technology, the people without EZpass can get bills in the mail after just driving through the checkpoint.

I'm fine with that as well, but imagine it would be problematic dealing with out of staters.

[SammyKhalifa]

Originally Posted by Lost_In_Translation

As with any change, there are benefits and costs. Inconveniencing a casual ohio traveler does not outweigh the benefit of helping improve the city infrastructure.

Would do wonders for tourism too.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Gnutella

...

I really don't think that was its only intent. Before it was built, somebody driving to Pittsburgh from Buffalo, Cleveland, Detroit or Chicago (or even Toronto) had to either go out of their ways to enter the city on the already-overwhelmed Parkways East and West, or get caught up in the local traffic on McKnight Road and Perry Highway. Even though a large portion of East Allegheny got flattened to make way for I-279, there was very little development the rest of the way between there and I-79, so it made some sense to provide a more direct route into the city from points north or northwest. And since it connected to a national highway system, then there has to take at least superregional concerns into consideration.

with regards to your last point, the problem has been that ONLY superregional concerns are factored in. On a trip from buffalo to pittsburgh, would it have mattered if the road dumped you on surface streets to finish the trip downtown? no, it would not have a substantial impact on that trip. in fact, this is likely the reason why highways were not originally intended to do these things and it's the same reason european high speed rail segments are between cities rather than just ploughing everything in densely populated cities down for a couple minutes.

Originally Posted by Gnutella

It's also worth noting that widening I-376 wouldn't be "speculative" at all, because the highway is completely overwhelmed. Widening it would just be common sense, even if it was only widened to six lanes instead of eight or 10.

the thread is about a beltway not widening 376

of interest

It's also helpful to realize that these city-stomping highways were never on solid policy ground. Swift says inner-city highways trace back conceptually to the seminal 1939 federal report, Toll Roads and Free Roads...A few keen observers realized this way back in the 1950s. Soon after Congress approved the Interstate Highway Act, people began opposing the part of it that prescribed highways through cities...Lewis Mumford, author of the prophetic 1958 article "The Highway and the City", called the inner city highways ...would create "a tomb of concrete roads and ramps covering the dead corpse of the city." ..Perhaps most significantly, President Dwight D. Eisenhower tried to stop the apple-corer highways once he realized they were in the plan that flew under his name.

http://www.citylab.com/commute/2014/...new-city/8924/

[doo dah]

Originally Posted by SammyKhalifa

Again, as an Ohio resident I would not have purchased an EZ pass or paid money to do this.

So, then I guess there just isn't anything desirable in Pgh to make you want to come visit. We can't force you.

[pman]

Originally Posted by Lost_In_Translation

I'm fine with that as well, but imagine it would be problematic dealing with out of staters.

there was a time when people didn't have mobile phones as well. the more states taht adopt this approach, the more that will have these transponders. if it's done at the federal level, then ohioans will have them.

Boarnet argues that one branch of the Interstate Highway System should have been reserved entirely for intercity roads. These would be highways running through remote areas with cheap land and sparse populations, so it would make sense to prioritize traffic flow and vehicle capacity. Paying for this branch with a pooled fuel tax would also make sense, because the benefits of low-cost transport and trade redound on everyone.
The other branch of the system would be made up of intracity roads, those running within the city limits. Given the high cost of land and density of population in cities, creating sufficient road capacity and swift vehicle flow would become a pipe dream, so the wiser aim would be transport balance. The logical way to finance these roads, given the great demand for space on them, would be with direct user fees — ideally priced to reduce congestion.

What the Interstate Highway System Should Have Looked Like - CityLab

[captainmidnight]

Well this is decent news, bringing I-70 out of the stone age: Interstate 70 modernization projects to move highway into 21st century | TribLIVE

It is an adventure riding narrow I-70 among all the tractor trailers.