Why have Pittsburgh drivers gotten so aggressive and angry? (Philadelphia: 2015, how much)
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The city has very challenging topography and very poorly designed infrastructure. It amazes me when I can drive across Toronto on the QEW and DVP more quickly and easily than I can drive across Pittsburgh given the huge disparity in population between the two places. Everything here seems to bottleneck as well - to get from Point A to Point C, you have to go through Point B unless you want to tack on an extra 20 minutes to take a detour through Point's X,Y, and Z.
The local drivers here are certainly not the best. I noticed that when I moved here. The locals just do not seem to be in a hurry - heck you can see that with people moseying about in the middle of the sidewalk as I fantasize about kicking out the back of their knees for being so rude.
That combined with more transplants, who are more accustomed to a rush-rush way of life, bringing their driving habits with them. And it takes a while for transplants to figure out a new city, especially one as difficult as Pittsburgh to drive in (with the poor signage and very difficult and sometimes illogical merges).
And then of course there are the clueless college kids stepping into traffic in Oakland wherever they please, the Progressive Messiah Peduto's bikelanes which are making things even more congested, and the militant cyclists that insist on riding in the middle of the lane on a main road at rush hour instead of taking a safer (for all) sidestreet.
Also thrown into the mix is a poor public transportation network of buses that are not convenient from getting into the city from the suburbs and a light rail network that only services the southern suburbs.
It's like a perfect storm of conditions conducive to bad traffic. Poorly designed infrastructure, with a base population of poor drivers, with a growing segment of aggressive drivers who are not strongly familiar with this maze of a city, combined with the presence of a militant minority also fighting for share of increasingly congested streets.
I don't find our drivers to be aggressive and angry at all. I spent some time this summer in the Philly burbs and received an education in what aggressive/angry driving truly is.
I know I am not a popular person on the forum here, but this may be a topic of some interest to others. I have lived here since the 60's and noticed that drivers in our region are aggressive and angry for the most part. Why? Our region is doing pretty well and people seem to like living here, but wow people are sure aggressive on our roadways. As a result there are a lot of deaths on our roads. Hate to say it, but people around here seem so self absorbed and just seem angry. I don't get it.
As a cyclist, I see a lot of crazy things. Keep in mind, I avoid cars like the plague, so they usually don't get mad at me. I am out of their way to stay alive.
Opinions?
I agree 100%.
Whether people here like to admit or not, Pittsburghers are not nice drivers like all the positive articles like to portray. Pittsburghers are aggressive people on the road for the most part. We're just as bad as our neighbors in eastern PA.
The parkway west is just as stressful to drive on as 95 or the Capital Beltway.
Whether people here like to admit or not, Pittsburghers are not nice drivers like all the positive articles like to portray. Pittsburghers are aggressive people on the road for the most part. We're just as bad as our neighbors in eastern PA.
The parkway west is just as stressful to drive on as 95 or the Capital Beltway.
Just as bad as our neighbors in eastern PA? Central PA is comparable to Pittsburgh, but the drivers in Philly and the surrounding burbs tend to be much more aggressive. Drive the turnpike from Pittsburgh to NJ and you can definitely sense a shift in driving behaviors once you get past Lancaster or so.
Some lady was too busy giving me the finger near the Liberty Tunnel this weekend that she almost hit the car in front of her. That would have been good to see.
Some lady was too busy giving me the finger near the Liberty Tunnel this weekend that she almost hit the car in front of her. That would have been good to see.
Driving is an anonymizing activity. When people think they're anonymous, their true colors come out. The attitude seems to be, "my time is more important than your life. I (my car) is bigger than you and I will kill you if you inconvenience me."
This is the feel for sure and it is everyday all day long. Keep in mind, I drive a lot as well and I try to just get away from other drivers and leave room for the madd people to do whatever they feel they have to for their power trip. Sure are a lot of ugly people around here these days. Just plain angry. When I am on my bike I see people's faces and man most all are angry looking. I could see 100 cars and never a smile on a face. Most smiles come from the very old folks though. They seem the happiest while driving for some reason, but many look nervous. Can't blame them.
Just as bad as our neighbors in eastern PA? Central PA is comparable to Pittsburgh, but the drivers in Philly and the surrounding burbs tend to be much more aggressive. Drive the turnpike from Pittsburgh to NJ and you can definitely sense a shift in driving behaviors once you get past Lancaster or so.
I'm in philadelphia twice a month. It's all subjective, but I completely disagree. Harrisburg drivers are tame compared to Pittsburgh and Philly. Pittsburgh has grown to be as bad as Philadelphia drivers in my opinion.
I've been dating my girlfriend for 4 years, and she's from Philadelphia and has commented how aggressive drivers around here are becoming.
EDIT: I think here city drivers tend to be more aggressive. Once you are out of Allegheny county, it begins to change.
The city has very challenging topography and very poorly designed infrastructure. It amazes me when I can drive across Toronto on the QEW and DVP more quickly and easily than I can drive across Pittsburgh given the huge disparity in population between the two places. Everything here seems to bottleneck as well - to get from Point A to Point C, you have to go through Point B unless you want to tack on an extra 20 minutes to take a detour through Point's X,Y, and Z.
Absolutely concur about the bottlenecks. Just look at I-376. Everyone blames the "tunnel monsters", but the true reason for why segments of I-376 near the Fort Pitt and Squirrel Hill Tunnels are ranked up with L.A. and NYC for congestion is because of heavy merge points immediately prior to entering the tunnels. First bad bottleneck leaving Downtown at 4:45 PM for Murrysville? People getting onto the Parkway East outbound at Bates Street who have literally ZERO onramp, forcing people ON the highway in the right-hand lane to nearly stop to let them zipper merge in as they "pop" up the top of the hill like a Whack-a-Mole game at the arcade. Instead of zipper merging, though, people in the right-hand lane become frightened and confused, forcing their way into the middle lane last-minute trying to "be polite" and causing that lane to slam on the brakes, forcing people in the middle lane to pull left inefficiently, too, and backing up everyone into Downtown.
Second bottleneck? The Squirrel Hill onramp, which is the WORST-DESIGNED interchange I've ever driven upon. People have to go from a complete stop at a stop sign up to highway speed, which may be 0 or 70 at any given time, AND merge left TWO lanes just before entering the tunnel. For people like me who drive a Honda Fit that struggles to make it up Negley Avenue's hill with the pedal to the floor, let alone merge on an onramp, despite our best efforts to "gun it" 0 to 60 in seconds we're usually "in the way" of people already on I-376, so everyone starts instinctively merging left to let us in safely, and then everyone just comes to a standstill.
If neither interchange can be redesigned, then I-376 by the Squirrel Hill Tunnel will always rank near the top of most-congested corridors in the country. The Parkway West has the SAME issue on BOTH side of the Fort Pitt Tunnel. Heading outbound? Good luck merging across four lanes nearly immediately on the Fort Pitt Bridge as people coming from Downtown want to go to West Carson Street and people coming from the north want to get into the far left lane. Coming INTO town? Good luck again as there's a heavy merge point just feet from the tunnel entrance.
If I-376 was designed back when Pittsburgh had a MUCH higher population, then why was it designed to already be over-capacity when built?
Other choke points?
Any part of heavily-traveled corridors with RANDOM on-street parking and/or random turn lanes. I'm involved in road-rage incidents weekly on northbound North Negley at Black because people in the left-hand lane will just continue to drive straight, cutting me off in the right lane in the process, instead of turning left as they're supposed to.
Why are people allowed to park ON Penn by the Evergreen Cafe instead of just parking around the corner on quiet residential Carnegie Place? What powerful person lives on Carnegie Place that squawked enough to make bar patrons park ON Penn, jamming up outbound traffic in the process that has to "choke" around those vehicles?
What's with Ritter's Diner patrons parking ON Baum when there's almost always plenty of spaces in their nearly-as-close surface parking lots? We've never gone out to eat there when the parking lot was more than half-full.
Why, oh why, are people allowed to turn left from Morewood in EITHER direction onto Centre Avenue from 4 PM - 6 PM? This has now backed up Morewood during the evening rush ONTO Baum (dangerous) in one direction and sometimes past Ellsworth in the other direction, often leading to Bayard being "box-blocked". With CMU growing like gangbusters this is only going to worsen, too.
Why is nearly every GetGo put at the most difficult intersections for people to turn left out of? Ever almost been in a collision driving westbound (towards Chipotle) ON Baum because someone turning left out of GetGo's parking lot onto Baum in front of you is obscured by stopped vehicles in the opposing lanes? I have! Not once. Not twice. But thrice! It's come the point where I literally drive 10-15 miles per hour near that GetGo anymore.
There's not NEARLY enough overhead lane signage on the outbound Liberty Bridge during the PM rush to alert out-of-towners that the right-hand lane turns into a Mt. Washington-bound-ONLY lane from 2 PM to 7 PM. When traffic is heavy I've been behind numerous people who don't know this and then put their left turn signals on last-minute when the adjacent lane is already backed up for hundreds of feet, preventing me and those behind me from proceeding up to P.J. McArdle Roadway without stopping.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4
The local drivers here are certainly not the best. I noticed that when I moved here. The locals just do not seem to be in a hurry - heck you can see that with people moseying about in the middle of the sidewalk as I fantasize about kicking out the back of their knees for being so rude.
If you're going to enter the crosswalk once the red hand has been flashing, then fine. All I ask as a driver is that you HUSTLE YOUR HINEY because it's not fair then that I have to wait the entire light cycle and then illegally turn right on red because you didn't want to wait for the walk signal to come back on. Often times this happens when trying to turn right from Atwood onto Forbes, for example, and only one car can turn right each light cycle when three or four SHOULD be able to if students stopped just walking through texting until the light on Forbes was changing. I don't know why the police don't enforce this, as it leads to much more congestion and much more road rage.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4
That combined with more transplants, who are more accustomed to a rush-rush way of life, bringing their driving habits with them. And it takes a while for transplants to figure out a new city, especially one as difficult as Pittsburgh to drive in (with the poor signage and very difficult and sometimes illogical merges).
Pittsburgh is definitely going through a major "churn" right now. Natives are slower and more patient. Transplants are more aggressive and impatient. When you throw them together the animus is mind-numbing. As a delivery driver my clients have different expectations usually dependent upon where they're from. If I see I have a credit card order with no pre-tip (meaning they'll tip me at the door) going to a customer with an out-of-area area code vs. one with a (412) area code I know I'm much less likely to be tipped by the former than the latter if I'm five minutes beyond their quoted delivery time whereas the latter tends to cut more slack. It's frustrating.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4
And then of course there are the clueless college kids stepping into traffic in Oakland wherever they please, the Progressive Messiah Peduto's bikelanes which are making things even more congested, and the militant cyclists that insist on riding in the middle of the lane on a main road at rush hour instead of taking a safer (for all) sidestreet.
In theory the Messiah's bike lanes should encourage MORE people to bike, which will mean LESS cars on the road. This will lead to less congestion eventually and better air quality.
I do agree, though, about some of the militant cyclists. If you're going from Oakland to Regent Square, for example, why not cycle up Panther Hollow (bike-heavy) to Ellsworth (bike-heavy) to Shady (bike-heavy) to Fifth (briefly dangerous) to Beechwood (bike lane) to Reynolds (bike-heavy) to South Lexington (quiet street) to Penn (briefly dangerous) to East End or Peebles? Yes, you'll be on Fifth and Penn, but you'll be on each for a VERY limited amount of time compared to the cyclists I see pedaling all the way up Fifth from Oakland. Just riding Forbes the whole way from Oakland through Squirrel Hill into Regent Square would be good, too, although I'd be afraid of being "doored" by people in the business district between Murray and Shady.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4
Also thrown into the mix is a poor public transportation network of buses that are not convenient from getting into the city from the suburbs and a light rail network that only services the southern suburbs.
Yes! Downtown is the "hub". If you live in any suburb there's a decent (not great) chance you can take a bus to Pittsburgh, but it will be to DOWNTOWN, and then you transfer elsewhere. PAT needs to make Oakland a secondary hub so it will service it by more than just the 54 and East End-centric routes. So you're a professor living in Mt. Lebanon and teaching at CMU. What do you do? Take the "T" to Downtown and then transfer to a bus through Uptown or Oakland or just drive up Washington Road, through the Liberty Tunnel, and then up Forbes? Which will be quicker?
I'm skeptical right now because PAT is saying that low gas prices means they want to add more routes and more service now. What will happen when (not if) gas prices soar again, though?
Quote:
Originally Posted by tyovan4
It's like a perfect storm of conditions conducive to bad traffic. Poorly designed infrastructure, with a base population of poor drivers, with a growing segment of aggressive drivers who are not strongly familiar with this maze of a city, combined with the presence of a militant minority also fighting for share of increasingly congested streets.
Cyclists DO have the right to SHARE our roads. You need to get used to that and stop treating them like a burden. For anyone who thinks only a few hipster anarchists bike I encourage you to sit at the corner of Ellsworth & Morewood between 4 PM and 6 PM and start counting. Dozens upon dozens (if not several hundred) cyclists will pass you coming out of Oakland---bound for Shadyside, Bloomfield, Friendship, Polish Hill, Garfield, and East Liberty.
Some of us would like to be hit from behind, thank you very much!
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It's come the point where I literally drive 10-15 miles per hour near that GetGo anymore. 
