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Coming from a guy who lived there for 14 years, I still don't see Austin checking many of the boxes. Its getting expensive as hell there, the traffic is as bad as it gets in the country, and there is little to no public transportation. The airport requires connections to go anywhere.
My small privacy fenced 1800 foot house in the Round Rock suburbs that I bought for $123K is approaching $300K.......
It has UT and the hip factor going for it I will not deny that. And it wouldn't shock me at all, but man I think they could do better.
i think the decision will end up disappointing us and won't make sense if it isn't pittsburgh, mainly because it will be a result of choosing who gives them the most money instead of what best fits the employees. my guess is austin though.
i think the decision will end up disappointing us and won't make sense if it isn't pittsburgh, mainly because it will be a result of choosing who gives them the most money instead of what best fits the employees. my guess is austin though.
Oh ya- I think Austin has a great shot because its the hip/it city. And will probably through all kind of tax breaks at them and there is plenty of land. But we don't need to worry about checking any boxes then because, they won't have checked very many.
And it won't even be in Austin..... it'll be in Round Rock where I lived. I should have rented my house and sold it in three more years! Because if its gone to $300K just from normal influx since I left, wait till amazon gets there. Depressing.
If Amazon and 50k good paying jobs is a bad thing, I often wonder what people would consider to be a good thing? What if Amazon had come here with out using this RFP process? Are people angry that the city is courting good paying jobs, or angry that tech is where the good paying jobs are now? Or is this all just an exhaustive exercise in “punching up” against well paid people and bemoaning low income housing? Perhaps the problem isn’t Amazon or the low income, but just general fist shaking. Thankfully our weather is cloudy, so those against everything can spend a lifetime yelling at the clouds.
A good thing would be attracting medium-sized firms and middle-class jobs.
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Originally Posted by Paul2421
but to answer your question, i think many are okay with what they have at life and see this as hurting their quality of life.
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Originally Posted by Paul2421
overall, i think i just don't understand how people champion social progress, culture, vibrant historical neighborhoods, and equality while writing off any criticism of offering up the world to a company like amazon.
Indeed. This is going to destroy the working class and what is left of Pittsburgh's egalitarianism.
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Originally Posted by gg
1. Why should city leaders have to give anything including peanuts? Anyone can be priced out and I certainly think the amount of section 8 that we sadly have to build isn't "peanuts". It is extremely expensive.
2. Amazon is the future no matter what, so do you want Pittsburgh to be a part of the future, or do you want it to decay. I would rather Pittsburgh expands and gets stronger.
3. Pittsburgh's city proper used to have a population of around 600K and now it is a little over 300K! We have PLENTY of room to expand. Tons of empty lots in the Hill and other neighborhoods that are turning to weeds.
1. I never said the peanuts were cheap. We're already giving away $400k town-houses to keep Hill leaders happy, in addition to subsidizing $1,400/month units for our new techie overlords. And who gets ignored? The working-class and middle-class. While they suffer with a rising cost-of-living.
2. Oh come on - "its the future no matter what, so let's just go along with it and not ask any questions". Such a typical Pittsburgh answer.
Why are we so focused on sexy tech jobs that are going to destroy the way things are here, and so many are Hell-bent on forcing out un-sexy technologies (like US Steels' operations in the Mon Valley, McConway & Torley, the Cheswick Power Plant, etc).
3. So why are developments not occurring on the already empty lots? Instead, we need to subsidize luxury living for our social betters in already built-out neighborhoods?
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Originally Posted by eschaton
I am by no means a defender of Amazon, but there would be knock-off effects for the entire regional economy.
1. Amazon has been semi-explicit that HQ2 is going to involve moving a good deal of their back office/less "tech" positions out of Seattle. There should be many people in the Pittsburgh area already who have the skill sets to have random white-collar office jobs.
2. There will be lots of blue collar jobs created as a result of the move - everything from the temporary construction jobs to build out Amazon's campus to the increase in service-sector jobs needed to provide services for another 50,000 workers.
3. While a lot of people will move in from the outside, this will invariably result in a tighter local job market, which will drive up local wages.
4. Real estate prices will rise, which will benefit every homeowner.
6. In turn if real estate prices rise, that means that the city and school district's financial crunch would lessen. More tax revenue means better public services, and the possibility of tax cuts as well.
There are certain people who would undoubtedly be hurt by Amazon moving to Pittsburgh - basically the same people hurt by any sort of urban revitalization - those who are low income and marginally attached to the workforce if at all, given they will eat the cost-of-living increase, don't have equity as homeowners, and won't see much of an improved labor market. But overall I think it's impossible to argue that adding 50,000 jobs to a metro the size of Pittsburgh is a bad thing.
1. There will be a follow-on effect though - with more tech companies attracting more tech companies. Like attracts like. We're already seeing it in this region. And look at the issues its already creating. Now let's just dump gasoline onto that fire and we'll wait and see how quickly it turns into an inferno that consumes the middle-class and working-class with insane increases in the cost of living.
2. But I see this again as Progressive hypocrisy. Many folks fought tooth-and-nail against the fracking industry coming here, no matter how many other spill-over jobs were created. And Progressives are trying to destroy blue-collar jobs that are already here (ie - what's left of US Steel, McConway & Torley, etc). But if God's chosen industry comes here - then it's all good in the hood.
Furthermore, if we are to become the East Coast tech capital - at what point will tech begin to automate these blue-collar jobs? We're already seeing it - go to the McDonald's or Applebee's on McKnight Road, you're already placing your order with a kiosk.
Pittsburgh doesn't seem to realize that it's advocating for the creation of SkyNet to Terminate it's working-class population.
3. But enough to off-set, or even keep-up with, the inevitable rise in cost of living? I don't think so.
4. How? I'd be giggling like a school girl if my house here in Etna had some Lawrenceville or Millvale-style appreciation and I could sell it and get out of this urban hell and return to the promised land of Shaler.
But in the Amazonian scenario - won't Shaler's housing continue to appreciate? So although I will have more value in my home, it won't seem to enable to me to "trade-up" within the region - the appreciation will only seem to help me as a home-owner if I decide to sell and leave Pittsburgh.
And until I make that choice, won't I be hit with an ever-increasing tax burden as my home's assessed value would continue to increase?
6. Yes, but then they'll just have more money to **** away on subsidized housing and other give-aways for politically-preferred victim groups.
Why is it that you're the socialistic one, and I'm the libertarian-conservative one - and I'm the one who's advocating for protecting the working-class, while you seem to have no problem shoveling more coal into the boiler as the Gentrification Train goes full-steam ahead towards Progress? Seems like we're living through a role-reversal, no?
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Originally Posted by eschaton
I suspect that Amazon is going to go through a "semi-finalist" and "finalist" stage, to build further buzz and attempt to play the last few contenders off each other.
An attempt to fleece the existing citizens of each contender city for more and more tax incentives so that the working people can subsidize their social betters living in the lap of luxury... God, I sound like a communist
i think the decision will end up disappointing us and won't make sense if it isn't pittsburgh, mainly because it will be a result of choosing who gives them the most money instead of what best fits the employees. my guess is austin though.
I don't see a city outside of the Eastern Time zone getting it.
Indeed. This is going to destroy the working class and what is left of Pittsburgh's egalitarianism.
1. I never said the peanuts were cheap. We're already giving away $400k town-houses to keep Hill leaders happy, in addition to subsidizing $1,400/month units for our new techie overlords. And who gets ignored? The working-class and middle-class. While they suffer with a rising cost-of-living.
2. Oh come on - "its the future no matter what, so let's just go along with it and not ask any questions". Such a typical Pittsburgh answer.
Why are we so focused on sexy tech jobs that are going to destroy the way things are here, and so many are Hell-bent on forcing out un-sexy technologies (like US Steels' operations in the Mon Valley, McConway & Torley, the Cheswick Power Plant, etc).
3. So why are developments not occurring on the already empty lots? Instead, we need to subsidize luxury living for our social betters in already built-out neighborhoods?
1. I would consider Amazon employees "middle class". We continually cater to the poor. Poor people are not going to help build a better school, infrastructure and help our city build for our future. They are only going to drag down Pittsburgh as we can clearly see by what they have done to old East Liberty (slowly changing), Hill District and Homewood. Sorry, but reality is reality. Money is what builds cities and attracting people able to care for themselves and make money are the ones that will rebuild our city not the poor folks living off the taxpayers.
2. "typical Pittsburgh answer". What I find funny is your answers are more in line with very old Pittsburgh, while mine are being realistic. Do you really want us to stay as a rust belt city? Horrible schools and a virtual ghost town? People are still complaining about East Liberty gentrifying. I think those people need their heads examined. I remember East Liberty just 15 years ago. It was almost empty and a dead part of town with a couple of bars and empty everything. People are dreaming up that it was some vibrant place. Hardly. Litter filled empty and dead with plenty of drugs and violence with the few people around there.
3. I guess our definition of "luxury" is wildly different. ALL the new apartments in East Liberty are middle class stuff. "Luxury"? You have got to be kidding. That is working class at best. I think old Pittsburgh's like yourself need to start comparing our city with DC or Portland and redefine our "middle class" as it is compared to progressive cities. Start realizing Pittsburgh can be better than Buffalo, Cleveland or Detroit. People that live in East Liberty's new apartments are just struggling middle class with mounds of school debt. They are just flats that you would see in Russian cities, nothing more. They are just new now, but will just blend into what more modern cities call working class flats.
1. I would consider Amazon employees "middle class". We continually cater to the poor. Poor people are not going to help build a better school, infrastructure and help our city build for our future. They are only going to drag down Pittsburgh as we can clearly see by what they have done to old East Liberty (slowly changing), Hill District and Homewood. Sorry, but reality is reality. Money is what builds cities and attracting people able to care for themselves and make money are the ones that will rebuild our city not the poor folks living off the taxpayers.
2. "typical Pittsburgh answer". What I find funny is your answers are more in line with very old Pittsburgh, while mine are being realistic. Do you really want us to stay as a rust belt city? Horrible schools and a virtual ghost town? People are still complaining about East Liberty gentrifying. I think those people need their heads examined. I remember East Liberty just 15 years ago. It was almost empty and a dead part of town with a couple of bars and empty everything. People are dreaming up that it was some vibrant place. Hardly. Litter filled empty and dead with plenty of drugs and violence with the few people around there.
3. I guess our definition of "luxury" is wildly different. ALL the new apartments in East Liberty are middle class stuff. "Luxury"? You have got to be kidding. That is working class at best. I think old Pittsburgh's like yourself need to start comparing our city with DC or Portland and redefine our "middle class" as it is compared to progressive cities. Start realizing Pittsburgh can be better than Buffalo, Cleveland or Detroit. People that live in East Liberty's new apartments are just struggling middle class with mounds of school debt. They are just flats that you would see in Russian cities, nothing more. They are just new now, but will just blend into what more modern cities call working class flats.
1. You live in Fox Chapel. I live in Etna. Our definitions of middle-class may vary, just slightly..
I agree that we cater to the poor way too much. But maybe we wouldn't have to pander to the upper class, so that we capture tax revenue from them, if we would take some more common-sense and middle-class friendly positions like no longer spending $400,000 per unit on public housing in the Hill District (Skyline Terrace)... maybe, just maybe, we could look for more efficiency with existing revenues instead of destroying the City's character by trying to become the next Silicon Valley??
2. The "typical Pittsburgh answer" is: "this is the way things are, so just accept them". Which is the approach you're seeming to take in regards to Amazon - whereas I'm pointing out that some storm clouds roll in after the initial rainbows and unicorns.
Again - these are working-class apartments? Seriously? I'd say that is quite disconnected from reality.
I'm working class. I net about $870 every two weeks. If I rented one of these apartments, I'd have about $300 left over the rest of the month for everything else.
I agree that they're ugly, and look Soviet-esque, but I pretty vehemently disagree with the rest of your statement on this point.
I also would like to point out that I'm a transplant to Pittsburgh, I'm not a native.
1. There will be a follow-on effect though - with more tech companies attracting more tech companies. Like attracts like. We're already seeing it in this region. And look at the issues its already creating. Now let's just dump gasoline onto that fire and we'll wait and see how quickly it turns into an inferno that consumes the middle-class and working-class with insane increases in the cost of living.
I think it's more likely that if Amazon moved here, we'd see more of a "startup culture" develop. Amazon chews workers up and spits them out. The median Amazon employee leaves after one year on the job. I expect turnover would be a bit lower here, because there's less options than in Seattle, but there will pretty soon be thousands of ex-Amazon employees bouncing around the metro. Many will pretty quickly leave the area, but some of those that do not will try and go into business dor themselves.
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Originally Posted by tyovan4
2. But I see this again as Progressive hypocrisy. Many folks fought tooth-and-nail against the fracking industry coming here, no matter how many other spill-over jobs were created. And Progressives are trying to destroy blue-collar jobs that are already here (ie - what's left of US Steel, McConway & Torley, etc). But if God's chosen industry comes here - then it's all good in the hood.
Furthermore, if we are to become the East Coast tech capital - at what point will tech begin to automate these blue-collar jobs? We're already seeing it - go to the McDonald's or Applebee's on McKnight Road, you're already placing your order with a kiosk.
Pittsburgh doesn't seem to realize that it's advocating for the creation of SkyNet to Terminate it's working-class population.
Whether the jobs are located here or somewhere else, the automation is coming regardless. And in the short term, there will be some benefits to those who aren't Amazon workers, which was the whole point of my reply. Not to say there wouldn't be any bad outcomes, but that some people will be affected positively by it.
Also, as a general point, there isn't some on/off switch which when flipped will suddenly turn us into San Francisco. San Francisco was more expensive than average even back in the early 1980s when gentrification was just beginning there. It would take decades of infill and strong regional population growth to get to the point that the Bay Area is in, where middle-class people like teachers need to commute from hours away because there is nothing affordable in the core. Given we don't have the absurd state laws regarding property taxes that California does, it may never happen.
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Originally Posted by tyovan4
3. But enough to off-set, or even keep-up with, the inevitable rise in cost of living? I don't think so.
If you think new higher-paid jobs aren't worth it because it will cause a rise in the cost of living, doesn't it follow that we should do everything we can to cause more jobs to flee the region in order to keep the cost of living low.
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Originally Posted by tyovan4
4. How? I'd be giggling like a school girl if my house here in Etna had some Lawrenceville or Millvale-style appreciation and I could sell it and get out of this urban hell and return to the promised land of Shaler.
But in the Amazonian scenario - won't Shaler's housing continue to appreciate? So although I will have more value in my home, it won't seem to enable to me to "trade-up" within the region - the appreciation will only seem to help me as a home-owner if I decide to sell and leave Pittsburgh.
And until I make that choice, won't I be hit with an ever-increasing tax burden as my home's assessed value would continue to increase?
Your taxes almost certainly would not go up, because Pennsylvania has an anti-windfall law which ensures that if property values go up across a municipality the taxing body needs to lower the mill rate accordingly. The only way your taxes could climb considerably is if Etna became more fashionable and popular than Shaler (which it shares a school district with, IIRC).
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Originally Posted by tyovan4
6. Yes, but then they'll just have more money to **** away on subsidized housing and other give-aways for politically-preferred victim groups.
Eh, I dunno. In my 12 years here, things have gotten notably better when it comes to small things like the city filling in potholes and knocking down buildings which are literally falling apart. I can already see how the new influx of tax money has resulted in the city filling its basic needs better, even if I admit many portions of local government are horribly dysfunctional.
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Originally Posted by tyovan4
Why is it that you're the socialistic one, and I'm the libertarian-conservative one - and I'm the one who's advocating for protecting the working-class, while you seem to have no problem shoveling more coal into the boiler as the Gentrification Train goes full-steam ahead towards Progress? Seems like we're living through a role-reversal, no?
Again, all I said was that people beyond the techie class will benefit from 50,000 Amazon jobs being added to the region. Amazon is a terrible employer and an evil company. They expect their salaried staff to work 60-80 hour weeks at times, and fire people for doing things like taking medical leave that is mandated under federal law. But all things considered, metros with healthy job markets are doing better than metros with shrinking job markets. I don't see how this is controversial.
As to whether it would be "worth it" for the city to land the jobs - that all depends on what kind of corporate welfare is being doled out behind closed doors. Peduto's public statements seemed to indicate that the bid was mostly competitive due to the low cost of our metro and that very little in actual incentive money was on the table. As long as that is the case, I think it's worth it. if we're offering billions of dollars in tax breaks behind closed doors, then it's almost certainly not worth it. Virtually every "deal" hatched to win a major employer ends up costing local government more in lost tax revenue than the local economy will ever gain in added wages, which is why the smart local leader doesn't even bother trying to compete to offer the biggest bribe to win a corporation's favor.
Wow, Amazon is going to have to go through 238 proposals. Wonder if any go straight to the shredder? I'm beginning to think Pittsburgh should have had Rick Sebak do the video. Irish bookmakers put Pittsburgh at 14-1 odds. Their leader is Atlanta at 2-1.
Wow, Amazon is going to have to go through 238 proposals. Wonder if any go straight to the shredder? I'm beginning to think Pittsburgh should have had Rick Sebak do the video. Irish bookmakers put Pittsburgh at 14-1 odds. Their leader is Atlanta at 2-1.
I think it will be in the east. My first guess would be northeast, but Atlanta has a shot. I am not sure if Pittsburgh is a little too far west, but it is only 45 minutes in the air to NYC.
Sure is going to be interesting. The chances are pretty slim, but I would love to see them in Pittsburgh. Just think about all the jobs that will follow to cater to Amazon's influx of people. It isn't just Amazon that will come here, it will be a lot of other businesses that follow them. It would be huge for our region. Let the grunge people whine and complain about everything, as they will do that no matter what happens, but for those of us that want to see people working and providing we will mostly be happy. Come on Amazon, choose us! It sure would be exciting. Maybe we wouldn't only be known for Steelers anymore.
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