What don't you like about Pittsburgh? (York: car inspection, property taxes, bus)

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Originally Posted by BrianTH

What basically happened is that in #219 londonbarcelona used the term "uninhabitable". In #220 I responded to londonbarcelona and also used the term "uninhabitable". In #222 you quoted my passage in which I used the term "uninhabitable", introduced the kitchen story, and substituted your own term "undesirable". In #223, subdivisions, without directly citing londonbarcelona or you, used the term "uninhabitable".

Under the circumstances, I don't think it was unfair for subdivisions to use that term. As I noted, it is true that you did not use that term yourself--but you did quote me repeating the term in response to the person who used it originally.

I totally agree that a house with a kitchen in the basement is undesirable. As are houses with 70's decor, Victorian floor plans, damp basements, outdated electrical and so forth. Many older Pittsburgh homes have one or more of these problems. Believe me, I saw it all in my home search.

However, none of these problems are likely to make a house "uninhabitable", which is what the OP of this topic stated while comparing home prices in Pittsburgh to those of SF, NYC, & DC, to wit:

Originally Posted by londonbarcelona

No offense, but the houses you get for the same amount of money in Pittsburgh are uninhabitable! The city housing is limited because most of it needs a great deal of work. A decent neighborhood (like Shady side is still 600K for a house.) How is that cheaper?

The implication here is that any home under $600K in Pittsburgh is literally "uninhabitable", therefore you might as well spend your $600K in SF, NYC, or DC.

I was pointing out that it is totally possible to get a habitable (although perhaps less than desirable depending on one's homemaking and handyman preferences) home in Pittsburgh for not only less than $600K but in fact less than $100K. Furthermore, the latter figure is not even within the realm of possibility for purchasing ANY home in some of the aforementioned markets, desireable, habitable, or otherwise, which would still make Pittsburgh a better housing market in my book.

Beyond that, the implication that it is necessary to have what $600K will buy you in Pittsburgh before a home can be considered "habitable" offends me on multiple levels. Thus my rant about our HGTV culture (no offense to HGTV, really - I watch it all the time myself - I just think it sets up confusion for some people about the difference between need and want in a home).

BTW, while we are on the topic: we looked at at least 10 relatively inexpensive houses when we were searching, and lots more on the internet besides. Although many of them were very outdated and a bit shabby (definitely undesirable, especially if you are the kind of person who wants a turnkey house), I really only saw one that I thought was literally "uninhabitable". It was a house in Morningside that an elderly person had died in, and it was obvious that they had been ill and unable to keep up with work for at least 10-20 years. The heirs were selling it and obviously had a vastly overrated sense of what it was worth. I thought it would take 20K just to make it liveable - it was literally falling down on the lot and didn't even have working bathrooms. Unless they lowered the price, it's probably still on the market. On the other hand, we found several homes in decent neighborhoods that just needed a bit of cosmetic work, including the one we bought (which was on the market only one week and actually had a bidding war, if you can believe that for a Pittsburgh house!) We've put some sweat equity into it since the purchase, and we get many compliments on our house now. It's not worth even close to $600K, but definitely more than habitable. I'd even go so far as to call it "desirable", especially for an older house.

[subdivisions]

Originally Posted by londonbarcelona

LOL.
I seriously need to get a life. I can't keep coming onto City-Data anymore because I do not want to see myself become like "post #229 where so and so said this where upon I then said, "refer to post #223 because so and so said such and such." LOL

WOW.

All this is just not okay. It's pretty much on the fringe of abnormal. So, I'm going to excuse myself from this party.

You're all some pretty cool, unique and intensely different people. *smile*

If what you mean by abnormal is, "Someone who calmly attempts to use reason and factual information to justify what he types", then I suppose I'd have to agree with you. This forum isn't exactly full of posters like that. Personally, I find Brian's posts quite refreshing. He thinks clearly before he writes, and his posts reflect that.

[londonbarcelona]

Originally Posted by subdivisions

If what you mean by abnormal is, "Someone who calmly attempts to use reason and factual information to justify what he types", then I suppose I'd have to agree with you. This forum isn't exactly full of posters like that. Personally, I find Brian's posts quite refreshing. He thinks clearly before he writes, and his posts reflect that.

Abnormal in the sense that if I am so concerned by other people's opinion that I find I have to go back to "prove" what someone said, then I probably don't belong here because I do not want to spend that much time on here to even know that, nor do I want let another person's point of view upset me, when clearly, it shouldn't, but obviously does.

[Katarina Witt]

Beyond that, the implication that it is necessary to have what $600K will buy you in Pittsburgh before a home can be considered "habitable" offends me on multiple levels. Thus my rant about our HGTV culture (no offense to HGTV, really - I watch it all the time myself - I just think it sets up confusion for some people about the difference between need and want in a home).

Just who implied that? Not me! Not london!

However, none of these problems are likely to make a house "uninhabitable", which is what the OP of this topic stated while comparing home prices in Pittsburgh to those of SF, NYC, & DC, to wit:

Which she aploogized for in a post prior to yours!

BTW, to get back to one of the original thoughts in this housing "discussion": I clicked on the google ad for homes for sale in Beaver Falls and did a quickie analysis. I did not check these numbers so there may be some minor mistakes. That said, this is what I found:

182 homes

45 listing at >$100K. They range all the way from about $100K even up to ~$600K

47 listings at < $50K, including 15 listed at under 30K. One is listed at $14K. Roughly 25% of the homes list either for >$100K or under $30K. That seems to negate the notion that the older, run-down homes are not on the market. It may not be an exact sampling of what is for sale all over Pittsburgh, but it does show that many of these homes are on the market.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by londonbarcelona

I seriously need to get a life. I can't keep coming onto City-Data anymore because I do not want to see myself become like "post #229 where so and so said this where upon I then said, "refer to post #223 because so and so said such and such."

For what it is worth, I only did that because I have seen a lot of these discussions spiral out of control due to misunderstandings. In this case, Katiana was under the impression that people were exaggerating what she had said when responding to her, which would not be a civil thing to do (it is fine to disagree with people, but we shouldn't exaggerate what they said before doing so). I was just pointing out that people were also responding to something you had said, and therefore not necessarily exaggerating what Katiana had said. And the sole purpose of my documenting the relevant chain of posts was just to forestall any further misunderstandings, in an effort to keep these conversations civil and productive.

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Katiana

That seems to negate the notion that the older, run-down homes are not on the market. It may not be an exact sampling of what is for sale all over Pittsburgh, but it does show that many of these homes are on the market.

Just to make sure I am being clear, I am not claiming that people are not trying to sell "undesirable" homes in the Pittsburgh market. But the NAR statistics I have been referencing reflect only the prices of the homes that were actually bought, not the prices of all the homes that were offered for sale. The crucial difference, of course, is that in order for a home to actually be bought, there has to be a willing buyer, someone who decided that as opposed to all the other available options, that was the home they wanted to buy.

Indeed, I have pointed out in the past that if you are someone interested in looking for a home to extensively renovate, Pittsburgh is a fantastic market, with many promising properties in all sorts of neighborhoods available. To be blunt, I would not necessarily recommend Beaver Falls, but I agree that to a limited extent your study of what is available for purchase in Beaver Falls helps confirm this point.

But again, unless the renovation crowd is dominating the buyer's side of the Pittsburgh market (which is pretty unlikely--as we discussed elsewhere, while some people do like such projects, they are only a minority of the market), then the fact that Pittsburgh has many such opportunities available should not be having a dramatic effect on the statistics for the homes actually being bought.

[By~Tor]

I say this thread has been "Jacked", what say y'all?....

[BrianTH]

By the way, I wanted to note that I definitely do not think the availability of renovatable properties is irrelevant to the housing market in Pittsburgh, but that is most likely to be an indirect effect. Specifically, it is very likely the case that most of the homes actually being bought are in relatively good shape. However, the renovatable properties represent a potential supply for that market: all you need is an investor willing to buy a currently unmarketable property and invest some time and money in renovating it, and then you have another marketable house available.

And of course prices are fundamentally a function of supply and demand, and even potential supply helps keep down prices since it allows the actual supply of marketable goods to quickly scale up in response to price increases. So to the extent Pittsburgh has a very large potential supply of homes (meaning a lot of homes that with relatively little investment of money and time could become part of the marketable supply), it is going to keep down prices in the Pittsburgh market.

And that is indeed probably what is happening in Pittsburgh. Which is great for all buyers, because that means even if you personally are not interested in renovating and want something either completely renovated or new-built, you are likely getting a better price simply because of all this potential supply serving as an indirect price constraint.

[blcapdee]

the town name says it all... It's the Pits!

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Originally Posted by blcapdee

the town name says it all... It's the Pits!

Don't you mean "Pitts"?