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I think the sketchy parts of the North Side will stabilize and improve before the West End, if any of these areas improve. The North Side has an identity and some momentum. A lot of people don't even know there is a West End! Seriously, mention the West End to some people and see how puzzled they act. I'm not sure if the West End is still in decline or just stagnant. It seems to be about the same now as it was ten years ago. Hopefully, it can hold its own and not go into free fall. I love Elliott. It is one of the hidden gems of the city. I would buy a house there in a heartbeat. I just never found one I liked. Most have been severely remuddled.
I agree with you that the West End is forgotten. Part of this is I think it's such a small section of the city (only about 20,000 people, IIRC). Part of this is because outside of West End Village proper, it really lacks any solid business districts. And a big portion is also it's kinda hard to just randomly stumble upon the area. For example, it's basically impossible to get there from Saw Mill Run Boulevard unless you head towards the West End Bridge and then make a quick U-turn.
That said, some suburban portions of the Greater West End - like Crafton and Carnegie - are on the rise again. At some point this might spill back over into the city. I also think fixing the West Busway (e.g. finding some way to connect it to Downtown so it doesn't just spill out onto West Carson) would help revitalize Sheraden quite a bit.
Has there been any news regarding the use of the prison site or the relocation of Allegheny Dwellings from Fineview?
As to the prison site, not to my knowledge. Last I heard they're considering just knocking it down entirely and building more light industry on site.
But there has been movement on Allegheny Dwellings. The lower portion of the project (Sandusky Court) has already been demolished, with the residents moved temporarily into the upper buildings. It's being rebuilt as a modern, mixed-income development. The other element of phase 1 infill are mixed-income townhouses which are being built directly on Federal Street in both Fineview and Perry South.
I agree with you that the West End is forgotten. Part of this is I think it's such a small section of the city (only about 20,000 people, IIRC). Part of this is because outside of West End Village proper, it really lacks any solid business districts. And a big portion is also it's kinda hard to just randomly stumble upon the area.
Thats the problem in the West End as far as I can see, there is no real cohesion or walkability of even parts of the same neighborhoods, let alone neighboring ones like there is in the North Side and most of the East.
We've been thinking about moving out of our current house, and I've been doing a little online window shopping. To get even a slight upgrade, in the same neighborhood, we'd need to pay 200k more than our 2012 purchase price. It seems as if every walkable East End neighborhood as well as the lower North Side is 50-80% more expensive than it was just a few years ago. Do you think this is normal appreciation or the beginning (midst?) of a housing bubble. I'd hate to buy a new house, and watch the value drop by 100k in a year or two.
Well you have to take into account that we have been in a sellers market for the past 6-7 years with avg price appreciation of 3.3.5% year over year and is some neighborhoods even more than that. With that said, I've been saying it since October that things are going to start to shift to more of a balanced market over the next 18-24 months and I think we are seeing just that happening. Pittsburgh is generally slower to respond than other more progressive markets so you have to look at those markets to see what's happening. What we're seeing in other markets is inventory starting to build, days on market longer, bigger discrepancy between list price and sold price and buyers having more of an upper hand. Now with that said, Pittsburgh is a fairly stable market to begin with so while we may see things slow down, I don't think you will see a drop in prices on homes, just a slow down of appreciation and buyers controlling things more than they have been able to for the last 6-7 years.
So to answer your question, no I don't think it's a bubble but the market does have to correct or adjust. Things can't and don't go up forever just like they don't go down forever. The last few years we have seen a large increase in price points though. I hope that helps.
I was thinking more about drugs than anything. But yeah, I wouldn't call anything in the Greater West End - except for Sheraden and a tiny portion of Crafton Heights - dangerous.
Drugs are all over the city. There's at least one dealer I know of on Paulowna Street---right near a house that just sold for $300,000+. Anyone who won't move to Elliott "cuz drugs" is grossly misinformed if they think that a ton of people in Shadyside or Squirrel Hill or the South Side aren't also on drugs.
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Originally Posted by eschaton
As we've discussed before, you have a very different idea of walkable than most people. There have been studies that have shown the average person - if they own a car - will not walk more than 10 minutes to get to a business. Any longer than that and they will drive.
I don't care if people think "something is only walkable if I can access it in under 10 minutes". Perhaps that's why so many in our nation are obese now? Maybe if more people walked further we'd have better air quality, less heart disease, lower stress levels, and more vibrant business districts? Most of Elliott is a 10-15-minute walk to South Main Street in the West End Village.
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Originally Posted by eschaton
Polish Hill certainly doesn't have a full-service business district. However, it has the bare minimum in terms of "third spaces" for people to hang out in when they're neither at work nor home - a coffeeshop (with some decent and cheap food!) and a couple of bars. It's not like a neighborhood of 1,000 people could support more than that.
Not everyone wants more "third spaces" when you can't even easily access basic essentials like a laundromat, market/grocer/deli, or restaurant without either a long walk or bike ride or hopping into the car or on the bus. I'd gladly trade Gooski's, Pope's Place, or Rock Room (three dive bars?) for ONE useful day-to-day business.
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Originally Posted by eschaton
Elliott certainly could support a bit more business if the neighborhood had more of a diversity of income. But I haven't really heard even a whiff of talk about things changing for the better there. I hear more people talking up Beechview or Spring Hill, and both of them have a long, long way to go.
Again, not all of us are looking to buy into neighborhoods "on the upswing" for resale potential because some of us look at housing as a basic shelter---not as something to pay $150,000 for and then sell for $250,000 in five years. Some of would be just as happy to pay $150,000 and sell for $150,000 in five years. If Elliott doesn't get any better (or worse), then I'd still be happy living there. Pittsburgh needs neighborhoods that are safe and affordable for the working-class.
Again, not all of us are looking to buy into neighborhoods "on the upswing" for resale potential because some of us look at housing as a basic shelter---not as something to pay $150,000 for and then sell for $250,000 in five years. Some of would be just as happy to pay $150,000 and sell for $150,000 in five years. If Elliott doesn't get any better (or worse), then I'd still be happy living there. Pittsburgh needs neighborhoods that are safe and affordable for the working-class.
Nobody wants to sell for the same price they paid 5 years later. It means you lost significant amounts of money and time. If you were just as happy doing this, then you probably should just stay renting. Less risk, no maintenance or repairs, mobility and flexibility.
like it or not, real estate is an investment. Being happy with the above would be equivalent to giving a money manager 150k, them charging you 5-7k upon you giving it to them( buyer closing costs), then earning you zero % per year for 5 years, charging you around 2-3% of your balance each year(inflationary devaluation) and then charging you around 10% to give you your money back(seller closing costs) And along the way, you get hit with random hundreds to thousands in fees ( repairs/maintenance).
You can say you would be fine with this until its actually your reality and you are the one fronting the bills, and the one losing the money.
Nobody wants to sell for the same price they paid 5 years later. It means you lost significant amounts of money and time. If you were just as happy doing this, then you probably should just stay renting. Less risk, no maintenance or repairs, mobility and flexibility.
like it or not, real estate is an investment. Being happy with the above would be equivalent to giving a money manager 150k, them charging you 5-7k upon you giving it to them( buyer closing costs), then earning you zero % per year for 5 years, charging you around 2-3% of your balance each year(inflationary devaluation) and then charging you around 10% to give you your money back(seller closing costs) And along the way, you get hit with random hundreds to thousands in fees ( repairs/maintenance).
You can say you would be fine with this until its actually your reality and you are the one fronting the bills, and the one losing the money.
This should be re-worded to "real estate can be an investment". Commercial real estate, large apartment complexes, even flipped or rented single family homes are an investment. Personal housing, on the other hand, is generally an expense if you ask me, not an investment.
Home ownership can come with its benefits, including price appreciation. It also comes with risks and costs, including property taxes, liability, the risk of price deflation, and maintenance. Home ownership also has an opportunity cost because it erodes a significant portion of liquidity and location flexibility. What you get in exchange for those costs and risks are better overall inflation protection (rents can rise, your home purchase price is locked in), and the ability to customize your space.
Renting also has its costs and risks, including the risk that the property owner doesn't properly maintain the property, price changes that aren't protected from increase, and the risk of eviction or that the property owner sells out from under you.
Generally, it makes sense to consider housing in this context. The rent vs. buy equation is different for every single property and for every single person. Run the numbers, decide what is important to you, and make a decision based on the results. The idea that personal housing is an investment is one that is pushed by certain folks who have a vested interest in people believing it is true.
This should be re-worded to "real estate can be an investment". Commercial real estate, large apartment complexes, even flipped or rented single family homes are an investment. Personal housing, on the other hand, is generally an expense if you ask me, not an investment.
Home ownership can come with its benefits, including price appreciation. It also comes with risks and costs, including property taxes, liability, the risk of price deflation, and maintenance. Home ownership also has an opportunity cost because it erodes a significant portion of liquidity and location flexibility. What you get in exchange for those costs and risks are better overall inflation protection (rents can rise, your home purchase price is locked in), and the ability to customize your space.
Renting also has its costs and risks, including the risk that the property owner doesn't properly maintain the property, price changes that aren't protected from increase, and the risk of eviction or that the property owner sells out from under you.
Generally, it makes sense to consider housing in this context. The rent vs. buy equation is different for every single property and for every single person. Run the numbers, decide what is important to you, and make a decision based on the results. The idea that personal housing is an investment is one that is pushed by certain folks who have a vested interest in people believing it is true.
hence why I tell everyone who will listen to buy a small multi family as their first purchase. Make your primary residence an actual investment, and be able to get in the game for a low % down. Its the best of both worlds and one of the few ways a person starting with very little can get a jump start on their finances.
There are ways to make the numbers work in depressed neighborhoods with little potential for price appreciation. 1) You buy a house for less than it's worth. 2) You sell a house for more than you paid for it, because you paid less than it was worth (this is my situation in McKeesport, if I choose to sell someday). 3) You buy a house that is in great condition and has been updated, but is priced at a bargain basement price. 4) You buy a tiny house that will be affordable to fix up, maintain, and heat because of its compact size. 5) You buy and sell through a closing company and save money on closing costs. (6) You look at the costs of renting vs. the money you save by buying. Sometimes you spend more, sometimes you spend less, depending on the house you buy, the work it needs, the size of the house for utilities, and the mortgage vs. rent ratio. The thing to remember is that when you rent, you are throwing that money out the window, too. You can throw it away on closing costs and repairs (not really throwing it away, if you ask me) or throw it away on rent. If it gives you some satisfaction to own, go for it. Someday the house will be paid off and you will really be saving money! When I was living in my little row house, which was paid off, I was able to save $1000 / month (while also fixing the place up, on a mere $30k a year).
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