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Pittsburgh has very little in common with Philly in most of the above respects.
historically, they have very much in common and share quite a bit of traffic. Also from an economic perspective, Pittburgh may be better off improving connections to Philly and NY than the Cleveland and Detroit. studies study what it is not what can be, will be, or might be. There's already some 14 flights a day to Philly (that doesn't include NYC) which is a congested airport. Reducing air travel to this overcrowded airport (overcrowded runways anyway) is also a positive thing since a new runway has been estimated at $20 bn dollars. The two cities share a common history as well, Pittsburgh steel, Philly manufacturing and a major coal port. With the collapse in steel (and manufacturing and east caost shipping in Philly), thousands of homes were abandoned, and both suffered under the state's formidable bureaucracy and oppressive taxation. Both had large amounts of eastern european and Italian immigrants. They are not so different as you think. Moreover, Pittsburgh's efforts to remake itself into a research center more closely resembles boston and, to a lesser extent, Philadelphia's. Something like high speed rail has the ability to change the economies fo travel patterns of people. If you do a study and build based on that study, it will only strengthen your convictions because it will solidify those ties. Additionally, from a political perspective, you are more likely to have a unified front if the line is to include Harrisburg and travel through penn.
China is communist in name only, and in no way did they not need it. Japan builds a lot of things they don't need. Even France builds HSR because they just build them, rather than bickering about it and suing each other for decades.
historically, they have very much in common and share quite a bit of traffic. Also from an economic perspective, Pittburgh may be better off improving connections to Philly and NY than the Cleveland and Detroit. studies study what it is not what can be, will be, or might be. There's already some 14 flights a day to Philly (that doesn't include NYC) which is a congested airport.
Many of those are related to USAirways international and long distance domestic flights since USAirways only flies to Europe through Philly and Charlotte (there used to be direct flights from Pittsburgh, but no more). If so, people are not going to take HSR to Philly city center, then commute to the airport. Also, I would not be so quick to dismiss studies. Public policy should be guided by knowledge not wishful thinking.
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Originally Posted by pman
The two cities share a common history as well, Pittsburgh steel, Philly manufacturing and a major coal port.
The primary source of the coal which was exported and imported in Philly was Eastern PA, between the Delware and Susquehanna Rivers where most of the country's anthracite coal reserves are. The coal used in the Pittsburgh steel mills was primarily from Western PA and West Virginia where it could be shipped by water. The lack of a water route linking the Eastern and Western parts of the state was one of the barriers which needed to be overcome in order for the two economies to depend upon each other.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman
With the collapse in steel (and manufacturing and east caost shipping in Philly), thousands of homes were abandoned, and both suffered under the state's formidable bureaucracy and oppressive taxation.
I agree with the last part of this sentence, wholeheartedly, however the decline in the shipping industry in Philly had little or nothing to do with the fall of the steel industry. The rise of containerization meant that deep water ports were needed. The abandonment of the southern route by the PRR meant that it was easier and less expensive to ship to the west from New York/New Jersey than from Philadelphia. Finally, the growth in trade with Asia meant a preference for West Coast ports rather than East Coast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman
Both had large amounts of eastern european and Italian immigrants. They are not so different as you think. Moreover, Pittsburgh's efforts to remake itself into a research center more closely resembles boston and, to a lesser extent, Philadelphia's. Something like high speed rail has the ability to change the economies fo travel patterns of people. If you do a study and build based on that study, it will only strengthen your convictions because it will solidify those ties.
I did not say that the two cities did not have things in common. What I said (and this is not my conclusions but the conclusions of researchers who have studied the economy of the United States), is that Philly is linked, economically and culturally, to the Northeast and coastal Atlantic cites. Pittsburgh is more closely aligned with the Midwest and for good reason. From Pittsburgh you should ship a ton of a materials to most of the midwest for about half the cost to ship to Philly. In addition, once you cross the Cuyahoga River Valley (about 60 miles), the remaining Midwest is nearly flat. In contrast, you have twice as far to go East before you are out of the mountains. Thus, construction of HSR from Pittsburgh to Cleveland or Columbus would be far less expensive than to Philly.
I'm not opposed to a Pittsburgh-Philly HSR link, but I see it being much more attractive if it extends, westward, to Chicago and to Newark, Columbus, Indianapolis and St. Louis.
Many of those are related to USAirways international and long distance domestic flights since USAirways only flies to Europe through Philly and Charlotte (there used to be direct flights from Pittsburgh, but no more). If so, people are not going to take HSR to Philly city center, then commute to the airport. Also, I would not be so quick to dismiss studies. Public policy should be guided by knowledge not wishful thinking.
you are guessing here. I'm some of that traffic is for connecting flights, but Southwest also has 6 flights a day. There's no reason the HSR train couldn't terminate at the airport if deemed useful. In fact, the UK is thinking doing just that with a proposed new manchester-London HSR route. I'm not quick to dismiss them, just less quick to use them as a Bible, and the recognize impact of public policy doing so.
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Originally Posted by JoeLeaphorn
The lack of a water route linking the Eastern and Western parts of the state was one of the barriers which needed to be overcome in order for the two economies to depend upon each other.
you misunderstand my point, which was a similar, not interdependent history. Of course, it was the railroad that finall overcame this, cutting travel time from pittsburgh from 8 days to 8 hours and solidifying the strength of the Pennsylvania, shipping Pittsburgh steel to east coast ports. none of this isn;t to say that a cleveland route wouldn't also be useful, but I also see the importance in a route linking it to the east.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLeaphorn
I agree with the last part of this sentence, wholeheartedly, however the decline in the shipping industry in Philly had little or nothing to do with the fall of the steel industry.
again, you are confusing parallel with causation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLeaphorn
I did not say that the two cities did not have things in common. What I said (and this is not my conclusions but the conclusions of researchers who have studied the economy of the United States), is that Philly is linked, economically and culturally, to the Northeast and coastal Atlantic cites. Pittsburgh is more closely aligned with the Midwest and for good reason. From Pittsburgh you should ship a ton of a materials to most of the midwest for about half the cost to ship to Philly. In addition, once you cross the Cuyahoga River Valley (about 60 miles), the remaining Midwest is nearly flat. In contrast, you have twice as far to go East before you are out of the mountains. Thus, construction of HSR from Pittsburgh to Cleveland or Columbus would be far less expensive than to Philly.
and likely generate less riders as well. we weren't talking about "cheap." You can keep saying "studies say this or that" but there are a lot of burghers in Philly, many Philadelphians going to school in Pittsburgh. As Pittsburgh develops its educational and healthcare sectors, the link between the two should become even stronger since we're moving people and not goods. As I see it, Pittsburgh should be the gateway to those places (as well as chicago) for an HSR network but I'll say, the added benefit and trip time reduction is likely to be greater going east.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeLeaphorn
I'm not opposed to a Pittsburgh-Philly HSR link, but I see it being much more attractive if it extends, westward, to Chicago and to Newark, Columbus, Indianapolis and St. Louis.
we have no issue here. the proposal calls for the Phlly-Pitt link, but I was surprised to see it disconnected from the midwest with no proposal for Pitt-cle, cincy, or columbus.I suppsoe they could be developed as corridors at 110 mph and maybe that's the implication. By HSR, I mean to say building a tnnel through the alleghenies where a stretch of the run travels at 186 mph, at least (some new trains travel 220 mph and France tested a train at 325 mph). To the extent that tunnel could be used by freight in off hours, i do not now.
and likely generate less riders as well. we weren't talking about "cheap." You can keep saying "studies say this or that" but there are a lot of burghers in Philly, many Philadelphians going to school in Pittsburgh. As Pittsburgh develops its educational and healthcare sectors, the link between the two should become even stronger since we're moving people and not goods. As I see it, Pittsburgh should be the gateway to those places (as well as chicago) for an HSR network but I'll say, the added benefit and trip time reduction is likely to be greater going east.
First of all, Pittsburgh and Philly are competitive in terms of the healthcare sector. Both cities have fine academic medical centers but neither is particularly interested in cooperation with the other. I say this because I am in healthcare in Pittsburgh.
People going to school in one or another municipality is find but unless you are a commuter, it makes little sense in terms of viability. Students travel a couple of times a year. That isn't going to sustain a railroad.
Moreover, the population of the Allegheny County/Pittsburgh area is in decline.
That is why I say that the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia route makes sense as a conduit for traffic from the Midwest to the Middle Atlantic States, and lower. But as endpoints, themselves, no. There simply are not the numbers there to justify this.
First of all, Pittsburgh and Philly are competitive in terms of the healthcare sector. Both cities have fine academic medical centers but neither is particularly interested in cooperation with the other. I say this because I am in healthcare in Pittsburgh.
People going to school in one or another municipality is find but unless you are a commuter, it makes little sense in terms of viability. Students travel a couple of times a year. That isn't going to sustain a railroad.
Moreover, the population of the Allegheny County/Pittsburgh area is in decline.
That is why I say that the Pittsburgh-Philadelphia route makes sense as a conduit for traffic from the Midwest to the Middle Atlantic States, and lower. But as endpoints, themselves, no. There simply are not the numbers there to justify this.
you're right, that's why there are 14 flights a day between the 2. I think you underestimate the ridership there, and quite frankly, from PA's perspective, it's a game changer. something that can help reverse the population decline. I also disagree with your assessement, many research activities are project based. PNC maintains offices in both places as do NY companies, which this woudl also connect Pittsburgh to. It's already been designated a federal high speed corridor.
you're right, that's why there are 14 flights a day between the 2.
Those numbers mean nothing unless you know what are the passengers' ultimate destination. USAirways just eliminated direct service to most Florida cities and Philadelphia is one of two major Eastern hubs for USAir. If you get me passenger figures that show that the majority of passengers from Pittsburgh stay in Philadelphia, I may change my mind.
Also I have a close relative who is a VP at PNC (Pittsburgh). I can tell you that they have been trying to reduce air travel between the cities due to the costs and moving to teleconferencing, instead. Of course, inexpensive high speed rail could make a difference, but that is a gamble as once people change their way of doing business it is hard to get them to go back.
Also I have a close relative who is a VP at PNC (Pittsburgh). I can tell you that they have been trying to reduce air travel between the cities due to the costs and moving to teleconferencing, instead. Of course, inexpensive high speed rail could make a difference, but that is a gamble as once people change their way of doing business it is hard to get them to go back.
yes, a gamble, but a gamble worth taking if you're Pennsylvania. the Keystone corridor has pretty good ridership despite serving areas much smaller than Pittsburgh and not being real high speed rail.
yes, a gamble, but a gamble worth taking if you're Pennsylvania. the Keystone corridor has pretty good ridership despite serving areas much smaller than Pittsburgh and not being real high speed rail.
I am not in disagreement that the HSR corridor from Pittsburgh to Philly should be built, though I am skeptical that this will happen anytime soon as, from what I have seen, Pennsylvania HSR plans (and lobby) are not as well developed as those in other states, including Florida, Ohio, Illinois and others.
Since I think that a substantial part of the HSR stimulus money will probably end up in projects in the Midwest, which is one of the economically hardest hit areas of the country, Pittsburgh would probably do well to hitch its star to a Midwest corridor, first, since this would only increase the value of the Keystone Corridor if and when it is ever started.
I am not in disagreement that the HSR corridor from Pittsburgh to Philly should be built, though I am skeptical that this will happen anytime soon as, from what I have seen, Pennsylvania HSR plans (and lobby) are not as well developed as those in other states, including Florida, Ohio, Illinois and others.
Since I think that a substantial part of the HSR stimulus money will probably end up in projects in the Midwest, which is one of the economically hardest hit areas of the country, Pittsburgh would probably do well to hitch its star to a Midwest corridor, first, since this would only increase the value of the Keystone Corridor if and when it is ever started.
that makes sense, though for pittsburgh's sake, it makes sense to hitch it's star to both, to hedge your bets. the best organized in the midwest are probably MI and chicago-St. Louis. still, if NYS can get it together, so too can Penn. we shall see.
Those numbers mean nothing unless you know what are the passengers' ultimate destination. USAirways just eliminated direct service to most Florida cities and Philadelphia is one of two major Eastern hubs for USAir. If you get me passenger figures that show that the majority of passengers from Pittsburgh stay in Philadelphia, I may change my mind.
just as an FYI, southwest also operates six flights a day, I believe, with no international connections.
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