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I wasn't looking at it as a comparison as much as a description of what we have in metro Denver. Denver was way smaller in 1969 when the RTD was formed.
It compares favorably to Seattle (they have nicer buses with lower fares, but not by much on either count and I think PAT is more extensive). They have no light rail, where ours can be extended two or three more lines (North Hills, Oakland and Carson St.) and it'll be great. Bus-wise, it's far better than San Francisco, which is like a third world country, when you can get one to stop for you. Of course, they blow us away in the light rail department. Atlanta is hard to compare because of how large an area MARTA serves and they have heavy rail so it's not a fair fight. Richmond, VA's is a joke.
Pittsburgh is not NYC, or L.A., or Chicago, or even Washington D.C. It could be Portland, if only it hadn't blown so much money on sports venues. For some reason, I was recently researching Denver's public transit, and they don't seem too different. Slightly more extensive light rail, but also with a much larger area to cover. Our rail is much better than Baltimore's. It's better than Cincinnati's, too.
Seattle has a light rail. And Baltimore has a subway, light rail, and Marc trains, so how is Pittsburgh's rail lines better?
I have always said - One area that Pittsburgh FAILS is in Transportation, and that could be a downfall when trying to attract businesses to this region...
The Port Authority is a totally reactive agency, NOTHING about it say Proactive....Putting the Trolleys on the Lower North Side is Not what I call proactive, to be honest its more reactive to the fact they had this money in the pipelines all along from the Feds and they had to do something with it or lose it, kinda like the Wabash Tunnels = utter failure.
The City and Inner burbs -
- RAIL
There needs Rail/Subway to 4 distinct areas of the city and Inner burbs
1. HOV Line to the Ross ParkRide Hub will allow for all North Hills buses to Feed into the line for express service to Downtown a maybe a stop on the North Side for AGH, Alleg Center, and North Shore workers...HOV is not needed on the Parkway North its the least of the congested Parkways.
2. Penn Ave Line follows Penn Ave out to either Wilkinsburg or Monroeville Mall, Creating a Transit Hub at both locations.
3. Forbes Ave Line follows Fifth from downtown to Oakland switches to Forbes at Bigelow the follows Forbes out to Wilkinsburg connecting with the Busway and Penn Ave Line creating a major Hub in Wilkinsburg also revitalizing Wilkinsburg as a major transit, shopping, and living center, it would be the 4 major CBD in the East End behind Downtown, Oakland, E Liberty.
4. Carson Street Line follows Carson Street out to Sandcastle then Services the Waterfront, 8th Ave in Homestead and follows 837 out to Mckeesport, turning Mckeesport into a true transfer Hub
A Crosstown bus would be created connecting all of these lines with fast frequent service from Homestead to the North Side without going downtown
- Too many buses go downtown and nowhere else
Needs more Crosstown routes and alot of Routes could become feeder services to the T and Busways...But Service on the Busways and T will need to be adjusted accordingly..When the North Side T is finished alot of North Side buses can drop people off at the T to get downtown, atleast this would make the T seem more useful then just taking visitor and lazys a 5 city block walk to the stadiums and casino.
- IMO Not enough Crosstown Service
Not everything needs to go downtown, outside of the 500, 54C and 64A nothing else provides a true crosstown experience..
- Too Many limited Routes, either whole routes or variants from main routes.
I've always hated that about PAT, does this trip go here or is it going there. Or bus Routes you never see, because they only come around twice a day.
- Too much infrequent service in the city.
Service in the city should be no longer then a 30 minute wait a most and I'm talking Late night and sundays....During the day on a Wednesday it SHOULD NOT be a 40 min wait for the 54C to get to the South Side from Bloomfield, I experienced that the last time I was home a few weeks ago...This was at 5pm rush hour, and when the bus came you could barely get on it.
- Almost No reverse commuting out to the suburbs for Jobs.
With areas such as Robinson-Airport, Monroeville, Rt 28 Area, Cranberry - RT19 area being the major business centers outside of city. You'd think that PAT would have some type of Reverse commute express service from Downtown to these business centers, that would encourage people to live in the city but still be able to maintain jobs in the burbs. Again goes back to my notion of PAT is REACTIVE not PROACTIVE in its thinking.
The Suburbs -
- Commuter Rail
To truly link this region Commuter Rail from the Surrounding Counties to the Far Suburbs needs be established to bring people into the CBD create a Rail Hub downtown say uptown at the Civic Area Site...
1. Lower Butler, Canberry line to downtown making stops in Wexford, Mcandless, West View area, Ross Transfer Hub and Downtown
2. Beaver, 65 Corridor line to Downtown with Stops in Allequippa, Ambridge, Emsworth, Bellevue, The North Side T station and Downtown
3. South Hills line to Downtown 1 branch possibly cutting thru Bridgeville and Carnegie, Green Tree. 2nd branch cutting thru USC, Bethel Park both Branches Terminating at Little Washington
4. Allegheny Valley Line to Downtown, making stops in Tarentum, New Ken, Oakmont, Verona, Wilkinsburg and Downtown
5. Greensburg Line to Downtown, stops in Greensburg, Latrobe, Murrysville, Monroeville, Wilkinsburg and Downtown
- Commuter Express Bus
To Supplement commuter Rail to Areas not serviced by Rail...Commuter Express Buses services Specific areas with higher fare for Non-stop express service to downtown or oakland.. No Local Stops neighborhood stops, exclusively used Coach style buses (NO CITY BUSES)...For areas only served by Downtown express buses the Downtown Express should make one stop for transfers to/from Oakland connections (I.e if Penn Hills only express is to Downtown, then the Express should make one stop at Wilkinsburg so people can transfer to EBO or the Forbes Ave Line for Oakland)
Express Commuter Buses Should charge the same Premium Fare as Commuter Rail for Fast Direct Service.
- become more E-Fare Oriented
1st Get Electronic Fare Control in place needs to be a top priority for PAT.
We should not have to worry about cash for the Bus in the morning or having the correct change...Either establish Magnetic Stripe Card or Smart Chip cards for Paying fare...Allow for refillable cards both in Stored Value (CASH CARD) and Unlimited Rides...Unimited Rides would be brought/refilled in Days 1, 7, 14, and 30 day increments.
Allow Refilling of Cards via Online, by Phone, @ Giant Eagles, and at all T and Busway Stations.
Charge One Base Fare for all rides in Allegheny County (at least) 2.00 with one Free Transfer Provided (Local buses, and the T)
Express Buses and Commuter Rail charge 5$ with one Free Transfer to Local bus or T
Transfers would be built into E-Cards to encourage the adoption of E-Cards over Cash based Payments.
Cash Fare would be an additional .50 to again encourage the using of E-Cards...
Allow Personalization of E-Cards so that if Lost the Card can be linked to an account for easy replacement.
- Customer Service, and Information
This needs to become more advanced and interactive, better map system maps...
Rollout "Text for Next Bus" at all bus stops atleast get the city done...(I seen this in Oakland and thought wow that cutting edge)
Update the DAMN bus stops, bus stops still have routes that havent run since 90's, and instead of route names, just say the routes destination 54C to Allegheny Center Mall on the stops.
Allow for people to email and text their questions in to CS...
- Outside of PAT
I know this is not under PAT control, but if Pittsburgh wants to be noticed by the country and world again...It needs to get people to come thru here, even if Pittsburgh is not the Desination.
1. Pittsburgh Location leaves you wondering "Why is this City not a Transporation HUB" it is the Center between the Mid-West and East Coast Cities. Every form of Transportation should have Pittsburgh as a Hub from Mid-West to East Coast.
By Rail -
Pittsburgh should be connected to Philadelphia and DC directly for the East Coast, a NY line could spin off of the Philadelphia line at Harrisburg. From the Mid-West there should be branch routes from St Louis and Cincy connecting with a Branch from Chicago and Indy forming a trunk line @ Columbus. and 2nd Trunk line from Chicago and Cleveland....with these routes over 5-8 million people a year would pass thru Downtown Pittsburgh.
By Bus -
Megabus should have three Routes from the East Leading to Pittsbugh - NY, Phila, and DC, three routes from the Mid-west Cincy, Chicago, Cleveland (Maybe a Columbus route). and One route from the North Buffalo, Erie...Again makes Pittsburgh a Transfer Hub for Megabus and they'd steal a ton of Business from that LOW CLASS, GHETTO run operation call Greyhound.
See this is how PROACTIVNESS WORKS! Proactive is NOT THE PORT AUTHORITY!
Last edited by Blackbeauty212; 09-29-2009 at 04:51 PM..
Seattle has a light rail. And Baltimore has a subway, light rail, and Marc trains, so how is Pittsburgh's rail lines better?
Seattle has no light rail. Seattle has a monorail that goes between a tourist attraction and a mall. And it has a 3 block long trolley that serves a couple of tech companies.
Correction: Seattle just opened its first light-rail line, to Tukwila. The equivalent of one line to Library in Pittsburgh. I stand by my original point: Pittsburgh's light rail is better and more extensive than Seattle's, which is nearly nonexistent. As for Baltimore, they're about the same as Pittsburgh, except the "subway" mostly only goes to Johns-Hopkins. Nothing against Baltimore, either. I love Baltimore.
I have always said - One area that Pittsburgh FAILS is in Transportation, and that could be a downfall when trying to attract businesses to this region...
...See this is how PROACTIVNESS WORKS! Proactive is NOT THE PORT AUTHORITY!
Lengthy, but very interesting post. Wow, will you marry me?
LRT: I agree with you definitely that the city needs a more extensive light rail system to make its transportation network truly first-class. I'm just not sure how viable the long-attempted "Spine Line" project and others are viable in the immediate future, what with our half-billion dollar hole. I still even shake my head at the now-derelict Penn Station T stop: This totally marks the spot where the next T expansion should begin. I really like the idea of a shared T-and-bus East Busway, not all that much unlike the South Busway, however this still would isolate the areas that could be served on a more direct (though much more expensive) subway system running along Fifth or Forbes between downtown and Oakland. Does anyone remember Uptown? The Hill District?
Buses: The one thing I think the new PAT transportation study has taken into account is the exclusive right-of-ways of the Busways (Thank you!). It's seems like a no-brainer to me that these should be the most major arteries in the Pittsburgh metro system. I may even go so far as state that if the Busways were connected efficiently, then the city may not even need new light rail (this is hard to admit... I do love my trains.) The East Busway is the only one that goes directly into downtown and as such, should be utilized heavily. I also think that the West Busway routes should cross at Mon at the Smithfield Street Bridge, thus avoid the choked Fort Pitt Bridge and Tunnel. There should be more feeder systems and cross-town bus routes that focus on the busways. The new transportation study seems to be stepping in this direction, but it's far from revolutionary.
I definitely think we should run a little competition here for people to make their own maps of a proposed LRT system, etc. We could separate them by "ideal systems" versus "practical proposals" and the like. Would anyone get on board with that?
Also yes, again I think you raise some good points. Nice to hear someone as impassioned about Pittsburgh transit as I.
In a world of unlimited funding, I would love to run a lot more light rail and commuter rail throughout the area.
But we're probably not going to have the funding for that. So I actually think we should mostly focus on integrating and expanding the Busway system, plus extend the T to at least Oakland, and maybe run commuter rail along the Allegheny. That is still an expensive set of projects, but within the realm of the plausible if the feds start shifting more transportation funding to public transit.
Specifically with respect to the Busways, I'd like to see the West Busway completed all the way into Downtown across its own bridge over the Mon, as originally planned, to Stanwix street. The South Busway could also be extended to this point to share this crossing into Downtown. Meanwhile, I'd like to see at least a dedicated lane rapid bus system from the North Side crossing its own bridge at the Convention Center to join up with the East Busway. Then the South/West and North/East points of this system could be connected through Downtown. You could do dedicated lanes along Stanwix and Liberty, or an underground bus tunnel. Finally, you would have a major transfer point between this integrated Busway system and the T at Gateway.
Again, this wouldn't be cheap. But it would leverage the existing West, East, and South Busways and connect to the T in order to provide an integrated rapid public transit network. And it would provide more coverage than any T extensions you could afford for the same amount of money, particularly when you consider that our dynamic topography and resulting dispersed pockets of concentrated population make it very difficult to efficiently string together the lines you would need to provide a lot of rapid transit service in the area with light rail.
In a world of unlimited funding, I would love to run a lot more light rail and commuter rail throughout the area.
But we're probably not going to have the funding for that. So I actually think we should mostly focus on integrating and expanding the Busway system, plus extend the T to at least Oakland, and maybe run commuter rail along the Allegheny. That is still an expensive set of projects, but within the realm of the plausible if the feds start shifting more transportation funding to public transit.
Specifically with respect to the Busways, I'd like to see the West Busway completed all the way into Downtown across its own bridge over the Mon, as originally planned, to Stanwix street. The South Busway could also be extended to this point to share this crossing into Downtown. Meanwhile, I'd like to see at least a dedicated lane rapid bus system from the North Side crossing its own bridge at the Convention Center to join up with the East Busway. Then the South/West and North/East points of this system could be connected through Downtown. You could do dedicated lanes along Stanwix and Liberty, or an underground bus tunnel. Finally, you would have a major transfer point between this integrated Busway system and the T at Gateway.
Again, this wouldn't be cheap. But it would leverage the existing West, East, and South Busways and connect to the T in order to provide an integrated rapid public transit network. And it would provide more coverage than any T extensions you could afford for the same amount of money, particularly when you consider that our dynamic topography and resulting dispersed pockets of concentrated population make it very difficult to efficiently string together the lines you would need to provide a lot of rapid transit service in the area with light rail.
Yeah this is by and large the "practical" thing for the Port Authority to do. I just tend to agree with BlackBeauty in that PAT is generally reactive as opposed to proactive. They seem to make adjustments only when there's enough outcry over the system.
The full-scale integration of the busways seems to be the only practical and effective solution to whatever "fixing" of our metro system needs to be done. The beauty is that they are essentially rail lines in that they have entirely dedicated right-of-way, though there's no comparison between capacities of PAT buses and the T's light rail vehicles.
I still think that utilizing the East Busway route is a practical way of extending and essentially completely the long-planned spine line. Other ideas I've heard would be utilizing diesel trains on some routes, much like commuter rail, so that existing rail lines could be used. I've heard this argument for using both the rails that extend from the East Liberty-Highland Park-Sharpsburg/Aspinwall corridor along Fifth Ave./Washington Blvd. as well as the Shadyside-Oakland-Greenfield corridor via Junction Hollow (aka, incorrectly, Panther Hollow). In both cases I know shared freight traffic is a nightmare, and that upgrades to the track would have to be made anyway (Junction Hollow track has about a one-mile-long tunnel only one track wide). My point is that it's not entirely unfeasible or impractical to have light rail or commuter rail in some form, especially in the east and along the Allegheny Valley... oh, might as well throw the Ohio Valley in there seeing that the T is going to be closest to them soon anyway.
To me, the Spine Line makes a lot of sense, especially if uses the East Busway route. The only problem is that it still wouldn't serve the heart of Oakland, The Hill, Uptown, and South Side. I suppose a new line could be created as a sort of loop in some way connecting these, but in terms of practicality, such a route would be prohibitively expensive: probably as much as running a Spine Line all the way to Penn Hills! I suppose old-style streetcar routes could be used, or even elevated track in certain stretches. Anyone know how much more cut-and-cover subways would cost compared to these two options?
Sorry, for beating the dead horse. Like I said, I do like my trains, and still think they can reasonably be improved on. I will always be inclined to think that someone from out of town would be more eager to ride a "green line, white line, etc." train than buses on a busway... even if the marginal cost and effectiveness is superior.
I still think that utilizing the East Busway route is a practical way of extending and essentially completely the long-planned spine line.
It is definitely the cheapest way to do it, but I think you also get a lot less bang for your buck precisely because the East Busway already provides service along that route. So this the one area where I think it is worth spending the extra money on running an entirely new route that would help stimulate development in the area between Downtown and Oakland.
Quote:
My point is that it's not entirely unfeasible or impractical to have light rail or commuter rail in some form, especially in the east and along the Allegheny Valley... oh, might as well throw the Ohio Valley in there seeing that the T is going to be closest to them soon anyway.
I absolutely agree, except about the Ohio Valley--the North Shore Connector isn't enough of a head start to make it worth the money in my view (in other words, there is no use throwing good money after bad). But a T extension to at least Oakland and commuter rail along the Allegheny Valley are worth pursuing.
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To me, the Spine Line makes a lot of sense, especially if uses the East Busway route. The only problem is that it still wouldn't serve the heart of Oakland, The Hill, Uptown, and South Side.
As I noted above, since the East Busway is already pretty good, I strongly favor paying the extra money to serve the direct route you describe.
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I suppose old-style streetcar routes could be used, or even elevated track in certain stretches. Anyone know how much more cut-and-cover subways would cost compared to these two options?
I'm not an engineer, but in the studies I have seen you actually can't save much if anything with that approach if you want to route straight to Oakland. You could potentially save something that way if you instead routed along Second Avenue then up to Oakland, but then you are again missing the prime route for development (and adding length).
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I will always be inclined to think that someone from out of town would be more eager to ride a "green line, white line, etc." train than buses on a busway... even if the marginal cost and effectiveness is superior.
That is part of why the T to at least Oakland does make sense. But the farther you get from Downtown and Oakland, the more you are talking about serving permanent residents and the less you are talking about serving out-of-town visitors, so I think the emphasis has to shift toward getting more rapid transit coverage for your money.
That said, we also do a poor job promoting the Busways, and the new Transit Development Plan would do things like call them by colors (e.g., the East Busway would become the Purple Line). I could actually see a simplified visitor's map with just the T and some selected Busway and Rapid Bus routes (another idea in the TDP) marked in a simplified schematic way (ala typical Metro maps), thus making it easy for visitors to see how to use the system to get between major destinations. Again, I'm not dismissing the out-of-town visitors' preference for light rail over even high quality bus service, but I think we could close the gap with some measures like this.
I seriously think the people interested should use like google maps or something to make their own ideal transit maps or something.
I'll try to as soon as I get a solid chunk of free time.
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