Do you think America is the land of the free?

[Opyelie]

Originally Posted by goat314

America and Free should never be used in the same sentence for more than a couple reasons.

1) America is stolen land. (I guess they thought it was free)
2) America was built on centuries of slave labor.
3) America had generations legalized apartheid.
4) America has the highest disparities of wealth in the Western world, because we lack the morality capacity to make sure "all of our citizens" have an equal opportunity to the basic necessities of shelter, health care, decent education, food, jobs etc.
5) America lets multinational criminal enterprises called corporations rape and pillage the natural resources and citizens of this country and others around the world.

If you think these are the characteristics of the promised land then you are truly misguided. Although we do have more perceived freedoms than most 3rd world nations.

and every ONE of those points is in error - but then you knew that when you posted it.

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by Bostonian123

In your opinion and whatever your political or religious beliefs, is America still or was it ever the land of the free? If not, could it ever achieve the ideal as espoused in the Declaration of Independence.

Need to put in an option that states, it was at one time, but has degraded over time and it can repair it self... and.. another that says the same, but that it can't repair itself.

[Nomander]

Originally Posted by goat314

America and Free should never be used in the same sentence for more than a couple reasons.

1) America is stolen land. (I guess they thought it was free)

So were most lands throughout history. Your point? Is it not now, or is it not because it was first taken and if you state such, do you also hold such historically to every single parcel of land throughout history and the world? Do you have evidence of the first owner of each since then?

Sorry, your claim is valid only in a technical sense, but then it was meant to in order to ignore the general question of the OP, wasn't it?

Originally Posted by goat314

2) America was built on centuries of slave labor.

Some yes, many indentured servants, not quite the same as slave though, but we could go into the details if you are willing?

Though could you please defend this in the generality as you claim? I mean, you state it as ALL was created due to such, and this we know to be disingenuous as not everything was dependent on such. Not every action, every decision, and every accomplishment was produced on the backs of slaves. Care to solidify your position? Or are general claims all you have? You know, there are organizations in history to which also rely on vague generalizations to lay claim, one is called the KKK. Shall we place you among their ranks of stereotypical beliefs of generalization?

Originally Posted by goat314

3) America had generations legalized apartheid.

Yes, but then it has repaired such in its ways to which the most violators are that of those of individuals spurring such, even by the way, those to which you might consider the targets. I hope you realize that during that time, there were many blacks who also supported such. They wanted segregation as well, they shared similar objection to each others race. Though I do not see you mentioning such.

Besides, if we are to judge the entire content of a person by a mistake they made, then I bet we can condemn you most certainly? Care to take a test of evaluation of your life's choices, actions, and mistakes? Didn't think so.

Originally Posted by goat314

4) America has the highest disparities of wealth in the Western world, because we lack the morality capacity to make sure "all of our citizens" have an equal opportunity to the basic necessities of shelter, health care, decent education, food, jobs etc.

And here we see the confusion. Explain to us here how freedom encompasses demanding others provide for them? First start with the definition of freedom. Then liberty, then explain the positions of the founders concerning such. Lastly, tie in how the individual position of another demanding compensation for their own situation as falling in line with your previous explanations? I am greatly interested to see how you tie them together.

Originally Posted by goat314

5) America lets multinational criminal enterprises called corporations rape and pillage the natural resources and citizens of this country and others around the world.

One can not be raped by choice. That is unless you are saying corporations violate peoples individual liberty (which you should have defined in your previous point) and force them to their will? Do they? Or do people "choose" such and therefore are subject to the responsibility of their own decisions? A company is not responsible for an oppression of a responsible society when abiding by the laws of individual liberty, only that of an irresponsible one. Misplaced blame? Maybe?

Originally Posted by goat314

If you think these are the characteristics of the promised land then you are truly misguided. Although we do have more perceived freedoms than most 3rd world nations.

What I think is that you have a poor understanding of what freedom is, what liberty is and what self responsibility is. It is your lack of understanding of the basic definitions of these concepts to which brings you to the poor conclusions that you make.

[Bideshi]

It has not been since as far back as the Whiskey Rebellion, and the Civil War clinched it.

[shroombeanie]

Originally Posted by Memphis1979

I can't freely grow a plant that does no harm to me physically, count that with countless other personal freedoms.

The Index of Economic Freedom, published by The Heritage Foundation and The Wall Street Journal since 1995, finds that the United States is letting Big Brother grow obese as other countries get lean and fit. Chile, Australia and Iceland improved enough to leave the U.S. in a tie with Switzerland for 12th place.

Read more: USA No Longer Freest Country - Business Opportunities Weblog

Originally Posted by Pappy&Me

It strived but never made it . It is about to be the land of the has beens .

I tried giving reps but couldn't. Gotta spread some around, so I did. Remarkably enough. So hopefully this will do.

Originally Posted by GalileoSmith

On the other hand, I'm not sure I want to live in a society that have limitless personal freedoms. I don't want to have my one neighbor free to carry an automatic weapon. Heck, I don't too much want him to carry a pocket knife. And I don't want the guy across the street to have the freedom to erect a civil defense siren in his yard. His car radio blaring is bad enough. So a nation with unbridled freedom isn't really something I would embrace. And I'll bet you wouldn't either.

Over the top statement. NO ONE said ANYTHING about "Limitless personal freedoms". Ridiculous.

Originally Posted by goat314

America and Free should never be used in the same sentence for more than a couple reasons.

1) America is stolen land. (I guess they thought it was free)
2) America was built on centuries of slave labor.
3) America had generations legalized apartheid.
4) America has the highest disparities of wealth in the Western world, because we lack the morality capacity to make sure "all of our citizens" have an equal opportunity to the basic necessities of shelter, health care, decent education, food, jobs etc.
5) America lets multinational criminal enterprises called corporations rape and pillage the natural resources and citizens of this country and others around the world.

If you think these are the characteristics of the promised land then you are truly misguided. Although we do have more perceived freedoms than most 3rd world nations.

.

Originally Posted by 73-79 ford fan

Not at all. The events of the last few years with the big banks and British Petroleum and Washington DC shows that the rule of law only applies to the rest of us and if we did what they did we would be rotting in prison and its going to get worse before it gets better. The country is turning into a police state.

.

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

1. America was stolen, fair and square (see "Law of Nations").

NOTHING is EVER STOLEN fair and square. I couldn't even read any further than that. It was all blah, blah, blah... yada,yada,yada.

[nimchimpsky]

There is no such thing as freedom. Freedom is very much an illusion. Every time you grant one group of people freedom, you take away the freedom of another group. No matter where you place it, there will always be a boundary somewhere between your fist and the next guy's nose.

That said, America has more relative freedoms than many other countries. But it is far from free, even in the more traditional meaning of "not-oppressing-anyone."

[melinuxfool]

Originally Posted by jetgraphics

1. America was stolen, fair and square (see "Law of Nations").
2. Not accurate. English slavery began in 1619 and ended in 1776, and "American" slavery (generally limited to the Southern States) began in 1776 and ended in 1865. (89 years - or less, if you set the "starting year" at the end of the Revolutionary War).
3. "Separate but equal" segregation in the South was not apartheid (A product of the Republic of South Africa). (This was partly due to the disparity in legal standing between Free inhabitants, State Citizens and U.S. citizens prior to national socialism. After national socialism, all participating Americans dropped in legal status to the lowest rung.)
4. Technically speaking, all enumerated Americans (via FICA) are "contributors" equally liable for the over 13 trillion dollar public debt. And as you may well know, since 1933, no dollars (lawful money) have circulated. So those who think they are "wealthy" only hold worthless notes (repudiated in House Joint Resolution 192, in 1933), and must pay tribute (tax) for their use, trade, and enjoyment of anything bought with them. So the "wealthiest" Americans are actually at a minus 13 trillion.
5. Corporations (aka limited liability artificial persons engaged in usury), a privileged creation of government, are suspect, which is why such "persons" are subject to many regulations and restrictions. However, since most Americans have embraced usury, any objection to them is moot. And corporations (and banking / usury) are NOT capitalism - which is defined as the private ownership by individuals (not group ownership) of the tools of production - land, houses, chattels, etc. It is ironic that usurers call themselves "capitalists" when in fact, they prey upon capitalism (or any other form of government that tolerates them). [See Ezekiel 18:13 KJV]

For those American nationals, free inhabitants, domiciled upon their private property, within the boundaries of the United States of America, they are truly blessed with sovereignty, freedom and independence. (So says the law on the books)

But for those U.S. citizens / residents, residing at residences, enrolled into national socialism, and engaging in usury, they're s.o.l., obligated to perform duties, pay taxes, get permission (license) to wed, travel, build a house, operate a business, enter occupations or own a dog. They are certainly not "Free". (So says the law on the books)

You sound like a member of that freeman cult. How many years have you gotten for tax evasion?

[Jadex]

We are becoming some robots going around the same maze.

Our privacy is gone
NJ police can enter your house long as they say they heard screaming
Cities are telling you how tall your grass can be
Fed gov telling you that you must buy something
You are having to work more to have less to pay for fed out of control spending.
You have to go thru heck to take a plane yet the southern border is wide open
People getting locked up for lame reasons like public disturbance
Your land can be taken. Yeah your paid for it but no one should be able to force you from your land long as you are paying the deed for that land

The list can go on. We are robots in a maze

[West of Encino]

Of course not.