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Old 08-23-2010, 10:37 AM
 
13,186 posts, read 14,985,890 times
Reputation: 4555

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117 View Post
Wealth gaps are a natural development in post-industrial market economies. It is not always a bad thing, as long as there is a check on that power and wealth. Of course, a large wealth gap certainly is detrimental in developing nations where only a handful of people control all the capital (as in most of Latin America).

Whatever the case the US ranks right up there with most of Europe in quality of life rankings (HDI);

Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US is above Germany, the UK, Spain, Denmark, and others, and only separated by most of the top countries by a few hundredths. Considering that several European nations have poverty rates much higher than that of the US, the welfare state concept is not perfect..



He always does that when he is caught in a lie, he'll stop flailing eventually..

Right but why does the USA and Canada and Australia rank so high?

Because they have huge per capita amount of natural resources.

These European countries with the exception of Norway (oil reserves) use their brain power to obtain their standard of living.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:41 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,759,378 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankie117 View Post
Wealth gaps are a natural development in post-industrial market economies. It is not always a bad thing, as long as there is a check on that power and wealth. Of course, a large wealth gap certainly is detrimental in developing nations where only a handful of people control all the capital (as in most of Latin America).

Whatever the case the US ranks right up there with most of Europe in quality of life rankings (HDI);

Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The US is above Germany, the UK, Spain, Denmark, and others, and only separated by most of the top countries by a few hundredths. Considering that several European nations have poverty rates much higher than that of the US, the welfare state concept is not perfect..
Those HDI rankings represent data until 2007.

In my view large wealth gaps are a problem everywhere, not just in developing countries. I see it here in Portugal. Believe it or not, there are some filthy rich people in this rather poor country. They get their money out of the country. What that causes is very low tax moral on the part of everybody. There is a lot of tax evasion and moonlighting here. People tell themselves, if the rich don't pay taxes, why would we?
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Long Island
32,816 posts, read 19,500,230 times
Reputation: 9618
If you are a poor American, don't despair. Just move to Europe. You won't be better off, but you might not feel as poor, because chances are you'll be better off than most of your neighbors.

Two Swedish economists have produced a 50-page analysis of the standard of living in Europe compared to the United States, and found that poor Americans have better living conditions than the average European.

European countries surveyed include Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

One of the starkest differences is the amount of living space Americans have, compared to our European friends. The latest housing surveys find that the average size of a European dwelling is 976 square feet, compared to 1,875 in the United States. The average size for poor households in the U.S. is 1,228 - or about 25 percent larger than the average European home. When you break it down to dwelling space per person, the differences are comparable - 395 feet for the average European to 721 for the average American and 428 for the average POOR American.

While poor people in the U.S. have more space in which to live than the average European, Americans also have more stuff in their space - the stuff that generally constitutes creature comfort.

Economist Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag of Stockholm compared the number of households that have modern conveniences, including clothes washers, dishwashers, microwave ovens, TVs, personal computers, VCRs and automobiles. In 11 of the 13 categories, Americans households were more likely to have the convenience than households in ANY of the European countries. In Sweden, people have more phones and cell phones than Americans do. Americans have more of everything else.


Bergstrom and Gidehag report, "Major living standard surveys carried out in the USA show the poor to have a surprisingly high standard of living."

For instance, 46 percent of poor American families own their own homes. More than three out of four have air conditioning. Seven in 10 have a microwave oven and 97 percent own a color TV. Six in 10 have cable or satellite TV.

Why such a big difference? The two economists cite taxes as the first reason. We complain about high taxes here, and we should, but the tax burden in the U.S. rose just 1.5 percent from 1970 to 1999, while most of the European countries saw double-digit percentage increases. More important, the tax bite on the last dollar earned (the marginal tax rate) in European countries ranges from 60 to 90 percent. Bergstrom and Gidehag refer to this as the "tax wedge." Six of the European countries have tax wedges of 80 percent or more. Bergstrom and Gidehag report the high tax wedges result from Europe's "extensive welfare system."

American also work more. The report uses a figure the economist call a labor supply (LS) ratio. In simple terms, if everyone age 16 to 64 worked full time, the LS ratio would be 100. In the U.S. the LS ratio is 74. In the European countries, it ranges from a low of 48 to a high of 67.

The natural result of more labor and lower taxes in the United States is more private wealth. Gross domestic product per capita in the U.S. is about $32,000. The highest of any European country is $28,000 for Switzerland. Bergstrom and Gidehag project that, using the year 2000 as the base, it would take the European countries between five and 23 years to catch up to the U.S. if the U.S. economy did not grow at all.

The moral of the story is that aggressive welfare systems, funded by high taxes, has proven to lower the standard of living in Europe to the point that even the poor in the United States enjoy more comfort than that of the average European.

If Americans won't learn from Europe's mistake, we are likely to repeat it.

Source:
the gap



I have friends from London who have just left my house from visiting. They were amazed at how big my garden was, and the "ease" of living here. London especially is very expensive to live and the property's are very small..
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:46 AM
 
13,186 posts, read 14,985,890 times
Reputation: 4555
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Those HDI rankings represent data until 2007.

In my view large wealth gaps are a problem everywhere, not just in developing countries.
The wealth gap in Europe is nothing to compare to the USA. It's been like this for decades and will continue for decades.

That's why these counter examples of Europe cutting back on social spending is so ignorant. Of course in bad times, government spending will ebb and flow.

The level of social programs is so much more generous and advanced that there is no danger of cutting back to anywhere near the level of the USA's dog-eat-dog, survival of the fittest, system.
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:49 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,054 posts, read 18,293,964 times
Reputation: 3826
Actually, Germany suffered economically for decades after WW2, even West Germany (still LOLing from Germany not being under Soviet control ). The rebuilding effort relied on sacrifice by everyone and no one was really allowed to mooch off the welfare system. Progressives look at places like the UK, Germany, France, etc at a snapshot frame of time and say "see, that's how we should run things". Never mind the utopian socialist system in place now in Europe is relatively recent and is already crumbling in slow motion. Until a decade or two ago, these places also had strict immigration policies and a relatively homogeneous culture. Is it any wonder that Scandanavia is one of the only regions in Europe that continues to have a uniform culture of lily white residents and yet persists in economic prosperity, whereas the cultures that have opened the floodgates in immigration (UK) have suffered?
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:56 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,759,378 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by workingclasshero View Post
If you are a poor American, don't despair. Just move to Europe. You won't be better off, but you might not feel as poor, because chances are you'll be better off than most of your neighbors.

Two Swedish economists have produced a 50-page analysis of the standard of living in Europe compared to the United States, and found that poor Americans have better living conditions than the average European.

European countries surveyed include Austria, Belgium, Denmark, France, Finland, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Portugal, Spain, Sweden and the UK.

One of the starkest differences is the amount of living space Americans have, compared to our European friends. The latest housing surveys find that the average size of a European dwelling is 976 square feet, compared to 1,875 in the United States. The average size for poor households in the U.S. is 1,228 - or about 25 percent larger than the average European home. When you break it down to dwelling space per person, the differences are comparable - 395 feet for the average European to 721 for the average American and 428 for the average POOR American.

While poor people in the U.S. have more space in which to live than the average European, Americans also have more stuff in their space - the stuff that generally constitutes creature comfort.

Economist Fredrik Bergstrom and Robert Gidehag of Stockholm compared the number of households that have modern conveniences, including clothes washers, dishwashers, microwave ovens, TVs, personal computers, VCRs and automobiles. In 11 of the 13 categories, Americans households were more likely to have the convenience than households in ANY of the European countries. In Sweden, people have more phones and cell phones than Americans do. Americans have more of everything else.


Bergstrom and Gidehag report, "Major living standard surveys carried out in the USA show the poor to have a surprisingly high standard of living."

For instance, 46 percent of poor American families own their own homes. More than three out of four have air conditioning. Seven in 10 have a microwave oven and 97 percent own a color TV. Six in 10 have cable or satellite TV.

Why such a big difference? The two economists cite taxes as the first reason. We complain about high taxes here, and we should, but the tax burden in the U.S. rose just 1.5 percent from 1970 to 1999, while most of the European countries saw double-digit percentage increases. More important, the tax bite on the last dollar earned (the marginal tax rate) in European countries ranges from 60 to 90 percent. Bergstrom and Gidehag refer to this as the "tax wedge." Six of the European countries have tax wedges of 80 percent or more. Bergstrom and Gidehag report the high tax wedges result from Europe's "extensive welfare system."

American also work more. The report uses a figure the economist call a labor supply (LS) ratio. In simple terms, if everyone age 16 to 64 worked full time, the LS ratio would be 100. In the U.S. the LS ratio is 74. In the European countries, it ranges from a low of 48 to a high of 67.

The natural result of more labor and lower taxes in the United States is more private wealth. Gross domestic product per capita in the U.S. is about $32,000. The highest of any European country is $28,000 for Switzerland. Bergstrom and Gidehag project that, using the year 2000 as the base, it would take the European countries between five and 23 years to catch up to the U.S. if the U.S. economy did not grow at all.

The moral of the story is that aggressive welfare systems, funded by high taxes, has proven to lower the standard of living in Europe to the point that even the poor in the United States enjoy more comfort than that of the average European.

If Americans won't learn from Europe's mistake, we are likely to repeat it.

Source:
the gap



I have friends from London who have just left my house from visiting. They were amazed at how big my garden was, and the "ease" of living here. London especially is very expensive to live and the property's are very small..
Many Europeans don't have laundry dryers because we tend to dry our stuff outside, which is forbidden in many US suburbs (talk about freedom ). The microwave density is lower as people don't rush so much, we have time to cook on conventional stoves.
What you call comfort only makes you people so fat
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Old 08-23-2010, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Raleigh, NC
20,054 posts, read 18,293,964 times
Reputation: 3826
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuling View Post
Many Europeans don't have laundry dryers because we tend to dry our stuff outside, which is forbidden in many US suburbs (talk about freedom ).
That's a function of the HOA. Also, many Europeans are assimilating the HOA model and not allowed people to dry clothes outside. Ask me how I know.

Quote:
The microwave density is lower as people don't rush so much, we have time to cook on conventional stoves.
Cite?

Quote:
What you call comfort only makes you people so fat
Cite?
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Blankity-blank!
11,446 posts, read 16,193,000 times
Reputation: 6963
As for Americans owning more homes. Many homes are trailers and shacks built of sticks and boards.
Someone mentioned that several European countries have a higher rate of poverty than the US. I wonder which countries those might be, and a link with statistics.
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:02 AM
 
Location: West Coast of Europe
25,947 posts, read 24,759,378 times
Reputation: 9728
Quote:
Originally Posted by summers73 View Post
Actually, Germany suffered economically for decades after WW2, even West Germany (still LOLing from Germany not being under Soviet control ). The rebuilding effort relied on sacrifice by everyone and no one was really allowed to mooch off the welfare system. Progressives look at places like the UK, Germany, France, etc at a snapshot frame of time and say "see, that's how we should run things". Never mind the utopian socialist system in place now in Europe is relatively recent and is already crumbling in slow motion. Until a decade or two ago, these places also had strict immigration policies and a relatively homogeneous culture. Is it any wonder that Scandanavia is one of the only regions in Europe that continues to have a uniform culture of lily white residents and yet persists in economic prosperity, whereas the cultures that have opened the floodgates in immigration (UK) have suffered?
I don't share your view. Britain for instance has benefited from immigration. So has Germany. That doesn't mean there aren't problems arising from immigration, but by and large the effect is more positive than negative. The Germany and Britain of today are much more interesting and likable places than they were decades ago.
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Old 08-23-2010, 11:04 AM
 
48,502 posts, read 96,894,387 times
Reputation: 18305
We cab aleways go back tot eh 50's miiddle class standard of living. Persoanlly;having live thru it ;I'll pass.
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