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Would such a society really be far more prosperous than a hybrid capitalist-socialist system that is de-facto the system in most prosperous developed countries?
What hybrid capitalist-socialist counties do you speak of and what do you mean by prosperous?
Thank you for the link, but I am not too sure what you are driven at.
so you have found some businessmen that have no problem with taxes in Norway....that's fine...that's their business to give up 50% of their income, and have their private info accessible to anyone, all the while with a smile on their faces...thats cool....but does everyone feel that way?......
Like I said earlier....where did that billionaire I saw on you-tube go take his wealth to?...to Norway or Singapore?...which is heavy on market-based economies...Singapore also tops the "Ease of Doing Business Index"...
so yeah you find some Norwegians that have no problem with taxes...that's cool...it may be because they were told not to care and "pay their fare share"....I don't think you can convince everyone else outside of Norway, who have born and raised somewhere else that 50% is a "Fair Share"...
So if you were trying to "calm" my fears and put things in "prescriptive"...its not me who took all of his money out of America and left...that billionaire on you-tube did.....
"That is why I started with "the kind of socialism seen in Europes "Democratic Socialsit" countries. Different definitions of the word makes for confused talks."
so I take it that "Democratic Socialist"....is socialism that is voted on..how is that different from straight socialism were the state or "collective" decided how to do things?
Democratic means majority rule with votes on things like the economy.....socialism means the same with the public majority control of things like the economy...
The incredible Hulk...Vs....Hulk.....is the same damn green monster
I am not too keen on spilling hairs and semantics with words..
Point is, a society with high personal taxes and strong socialist programs work fine. The rate of business startups is higher than in America. Much like in Denmark, Switzerland and Canada. All of whom have much higher taxes, stronger welfare programs, a higher rate of business startups, and better social mobility than the US.
By most indicators, it works better than the low-tax, low social services system of the US.
Of course, the really significant difference is that they feel they get value for money for the taxes they pay. The American people does not feel that to the same degree.
Point is, a society with high personal taxes and strong socialist programs work fine. The rate of business startups is higher than in America. Much like in Denmark, Switzerland and Canada. All of whom have much higher taxes, stronger welfare programs, a higher rate of business startups, and better social mobility than the US.
By most indicators, it works better than the low-tax, low social services system of the US.
Of course, the really significant difference is that they feel they get value for money for the taxes they pay. The American people does not feel that to the same degree.
I agree with that...have no disputes with that...
My point is that of course they have no problems with all those "socialist" programs...its their culture, what they have been born into and raised with..its what they expect......
like people who parents raised them with corporal punishments like spanking...they see it just fine, in-fact, they are for "spankings" because they know nothing different...(my gym teacher told me years ago and left a powerful impression on me for I couldn't imagine being "spanked" as a kid, but here he was, proudly telling the whole class that is how he was raised and planed on raising his kids the same).....is it wrong?...the hell should I know, thats their business....
My point is this, that is they way they get things done......now, do the rest of us feel the same way?....do you feel as if you want to give up %50 of your income and have all your tax records made public on some website anyone can access?...what the hell is the purpose of having your tax records on display serve anyway?
I always see people list European nations as if they are they are the only players around..........Hong Kong, Singapore, Japan and Many other Asian nations outperform both the US and EU when it comes to growth and economic freedom.
Norway: GDP growth -1.1% (2009 est.)
Singapore: GDP growth 17.9% (first half of 2010 est.)
(FINALLY.....yes, I remember his name, Jim rogers was that billionaire I saw on youtube...)
so yeah, there may be people that have no problem with forking over half their income to the state and having their finances on display for all to see in the name of "fair share"....but not every one feels the same...and they have options...there are nations that would welcome them and their money,....given human nature, which is more likely to happen?...Singapore or Norway?....well, just ask Jim Rogers what he did.
In the end, there are alot of options and nations for pro-socialist and pro-capitalist people if they are determined enough and strongly believe in their "ideologies".....I know the whole "if you don't like it, then leave it" thing sounds stupid and over-used, but there are options for both the left and the right...question remains on who will have the last laugh...
This is complete waste of time... but this is my response.
The people elect a government and they get the government they elected.
When you get a government no longer interested in liberty for individuals and are more interested in special interests you have a serious problem. No matter what the ideology men of no princples of individual freedom in government destroys the freedom of individual. This process makes and no longer puts the fact and prosperous goal in the hands on the individual and rewards corporations and groups of people and burdens each individual to the same fate. While government with good intentions will provide and or assist your economic life and social choices it will also corrupt and water down your individual rights. Libertarian principles put the individual before the common good of society when the common good society abandons the individuals rights, to their life and property.
Common laws were created to protect against aggressive groups, governments and those who use the FORCE of government on individuals against the fruit of their labor and the lively hood of each person.
I think in society were laws that protect individuals and letting them make their own decisions is not a unreasonable but it harder for those who have a hard time letting go of the need to control others.
This society where you are accountable for your actions in criminal and courts would still apply.
This society is difficult for those who current live in a place where government provides, government protects, government forces, government steals, government kills, and government gives you the excuse to blame individuals for this society.
The people have created this society with social and economic government controls it was not freedom that created this country based on corporate and group special interest it was the people.
The power, the military and your income taxes do the rest to make sure your rights are subverted and molded to what one half of the nation thinks is freedom. This freedom is nothing more then the control and force of individuals to the moral and economic fairness.
Libertarian principles put the individual before the common good of society when the common good society abandons the individuals rights, to their life and property.
The problem is, Libertarian principles also assume corporations (largely the reason corruption prevails over people) are akin to individuals, not an artificial entity that ought to be regulated via the governments.
Every BBS you go, there are always a bunch of Ann Rand/libertarian fundamentalists evangelizing how great the world would be if run under "libertarian" principles in lots of different threads. But how would such a society actually turn out? Would such a society really be far more prosperous than a hybrid capitalist-socialist system that is de-facto the system in most prosperous developed countries?
So now the attacks begin against Liberatarians!
You gotta love the Liberal mantra...
Not everyone who disagrees with a socialist agenda is a pure Liberatarian or a far right winger..
The lefties in this country have control over the media, the polticians and the far left agenda has been set..
I do not see your point in bringing up a debate which is no relevent..
I dont see a major shift or movement in this country to bring it to the extreme right or into pure liberatarianism..
What I see is a movement to stop the country from moving further left and becoming more socialistic then ever..
The problem is, Libertarian principles also assume corporations (largely the reason corruption prevails over people) are akin to individuals, not an artificial entity that ought to be regulated via the governments.
You are confused. It is just the opposite. Libertarians believe in the free market unencumbered by government manipulation. The USA would not have had this current housing crisis if government stayed with the free market and did not try to manipulate the economy. If you don't think government intervention with the free market caused the housing crisis you haven't been paying attention.
You are confused. It is just the opposite. Libertarians believe in the free market unencumbered by government manipulation. The USA would not have had this current housing crisis if government stayed with the free market and did not try to manipulate the economy. If you don't think government intervention with the free market caused the housing crisis you haven't been paying attention.
Stick to my point, if you want to talk about it. What did I confuse? Do libertarians not support the idea of corporate entities as deserving of same rights as a person? Do corporations engage in polluting political environment?
Instead of trying to manufacture confusion, try answering the questions directly.
Every BBS you go, there are always a bunch of Ann Rand/libertarian fundamentalists evangelizing how great the world would be if run under "libertarian" principles in lots of different threads. But how would such a society actually turn out? Would such a society really be far more prosperous than a hybrid capitalist-socialist system that is de-facto the system in most prosperous developed countries?
There are only two possibilities:
1) Yes it would lead to a more prosperous society than any other system on Earth.
2) No it would not lead to a more prosperous society but that is irrelevant as it is the principles that matter regardless of the outcome.
Regarding (1), there is no way that a pure libertarian society could ever achieve prosperity. The principles of so-called "libertarianism" -- which really ought to be called "propertarianism," as its adherents are far more concerned with property than with liberty -- would inevitably lead to what we had in the 19th Century: A small, wealthy elite dominating a large, impoverished majority whilst controlling the government for their own benefit, all under the guise of "consensual" contracts that are in actuality coerced out of the lower classes by their own desperate need for resources. The end result of any real libertarian state is one of 2 things. Either you get Somalia or you get a corporate tyranny. I wouldn't want to live in either of those places.
Regarding (2), if the principles result in a worse outcome for most of the people, why would its idea be attractive to them???
PLease... Here is another person defining Libertarianism when they haven't even supported it by the LP organization platforms. Go to www.LP.org.
I will provide you with the platforms, and then you can argue the real platforms of the LP instead of ones constructed by fantasy to fit your mold of what you think it is here.
The Party of Principle
Smaller Government - Lower Taxes - More Freedom\ Home › Issues ›
Platform
Libertarian Party 2010 Platform
Adopted in Convention, May 2010, St. Louis, Missouri Download as a PDF
Quote:
<H2>Preamble
Quote:
As Libertarians, we seek a world of liberty; a world in which all individuals are sovereign over their own lives and no one is forced to sacrifice his or her values for the benefit of others.
We believe that respect for individual rights is the essential precondition for a free and prosperous world, that force and fraud must be banished from human relationships, and that only through freedom can peace and prosperity be realized.
Consequently, we defend each person's right to engage in any activity that is peaceful and honest, and welcome the diversity that freedom brings. The world we seek to build is one where individuals are free to follow their own dreams in their own ways, without interference from government or any authoritarian power.
In the following pages we have set forth our basic principles and enumerated various policy stands derived from those principles.
These specific policies are not our goal, however. Our goal is nothing more nor less than a world set free in our lifetime, and it is to this end that we take these stands. Statement of Principles
We, the members of the Libertarian Party, challenge the cult of the omnipotent state and defend the rights of the individual.
We hold that all individuals have the right to exercise sole dominion over their own lives, and have the right to live in whatever manner they choose, so long as they do not forcibly interfere with the equal right of others to live in whatever manner they choose.
Governments throughout history have regularly operated on the opposite principle, that the State has the right to dispose of the lives of individuals and the fruits of their labor. Even within the United States, all political parties other than our own grant to government the right to regulate the lives of individuals and seize the fruits of their labor without their consent.
We, on the contrary, deny the right of any government to do these things, and hold that where governments exist, they must not violate the rights of any individual: namely,
(1) the right to life -- accordingly we support the prohibition of the initiation of physical force against others;
(2) the right to liberty of speech and action -- accordingly we oppose all attempts by government to abridge the freedom of speech and press, as well as government censorship in any form; and
(3) the right to property -- accordingly we oppose all government interference with private property, such as confiscation, nationalization, and eminent domain, and support the prohibition of robbery, trespass, fraud, and misrepresentation.
Since governments, when instituted, must not violate individual rights, we oppose all interference by government in the areas of voluntary and contractual relations among individuals. People should not be forced to sacrifice their lives and property for the benefit of others. They should be left free by government to deal with one another as free traders; and the resultant economic system, the only one compatible with the protection of individual rights, is the free market.
1.0 Personal Liberty
Individuals should be free to make choices for themselves and to accept responsibility for the consequences of the choices they make. No individual, group, or government may initiate force against any other individual, group, or government. Our support of an individual's right to make choices in life does not mean that we necessarily approve or disapprove of those choices.
1.1 Expression and Communication
We support full freedom of expression and oppose government censorship, regulation or control of communications media and technology. We favor the freedom to engage in or abstain from any religious activities that do not violate the rights of others. We oppose government actions which either aid or attack any religion.
1.2 Personal Privacy
Libertarians support the rights recognized by the Fourth Amendment to be secure in our persons,
homes, and property. Protection from unreasonable search and seizure should include records held
by third parties, such as email, medical, and library records. Only actions that infringe on the rights
of others can properly be termed crimes. We favor the repeal of all laws creating “crimes” without
victims, such as the use of drugs for medicinal or recreational purposes.
1.3 Personal Relationships
Sexual orientation, preference, gender, or gender identity should have no impact on the
government's treatment of individuals, such as in current marriage, child custody, adoption,
immigration or military service laws. Government does not have the authority to define, license or
restrict personal relationships. Consenting adults should be free to choose their own sexual practices
and personal relationships.
1.4 Abortion
Recognizing that abortion is a sensitive issue and that people can hold good-faith views on all sides, we believe that government should be kept out of the matter, leaving the question to each person for their conscientious consideration.
1.5 Crime and Justice
Government exists to protect the rights of every individual including life, liberty and property. Criminal laws should be limited to violation of the rights of others through force or fraud, or deliberate actions that place others involuntarily at significant risk of harm. Individuals retain the right to voluntarily assume risk of harm to themselves. We support restitution of the victim to the fullest degree possible at the expense of the criminal or the negligent wrongdoer. We oppose reduction of constitutional safeguards of the rights of the criminally accused. The rights of due process, a speedy trial, legal counsel, trial by jury, and the legal presumption of innocence until proven guilty, must not be denied. We assert the common-law right of juries to judge not only the facts but also the justice of the law.
1.6 Self-Defense
The only legitimate use of force is in defense of individual rights — life, liberty, and justly acquired
property — against aggression. This right inheres in the individual, who may agree to be aided by
any other individual or group. We affirm the individual right recognized by the Second Amendment
to keep and bear arms, and oppose the prosecution of individuals for exercising their rights of self-defense.
We oppose all laws at any level of government requiring registration of, or restricting, the
ownership, manufacture, or transfer or sale of firearms or ammunition.
2.0 Economic Liberty
Libertarians want all members of society to have abundant opportunities to achieve economic
success. A free and competitive market allocates resources in the most efficient manner. Each
person has the right to offer goods and services to others on the free market. The only proper role of
government in the economic realm is to protect property rights, adjudicate disputes, and provide a
legal framework in which voluntary trade is protected. All efforts by government to redistribute
wealth, or to control or manage trade, are improper in a free society.
2.1 Property and Contract
Property rights are entitled to the same protection as all other human rights. The owners of property have the full right to control, use, dispose of, or in any manner enjoy, their property without interference, until and unless the exercise of their control infringes the valid rights of others. We oppose all controls on wages, prices, rents, profits, production, and interest rates. We advocate the repeal of all laws banning or restricting the advertising of prices, products, or services. We oppose all violations of the right to private property, liberty of contract, and freedom of trade. The right to trade includes the right not to trade — for any reasons whatsoever. Where property, including land, has been taken from its rightful owners by the government or private action in violation of individual rights, we favor restitution to the rightful owners.
2.2 Environment
We support a clean and healthy environment and sensible use of our natural resources. Private landowners and conservation groups have a vested interest in maintaining natural resources. Pollution and misuse of resources cause damage to our ecosystem. Governments, unlike private businesses, are unaccountable for such damage done to our environment and have a terrible track record when it comes to environmental protection. Protecting the environment requires a clear definition and enforcement of individual rights in resources like land, water, air, and wildlife. Free markets and property rights stimulate the technological innovations and behavioral changes required to protect our environment and ecosystems. We realize that our planet's climate is constantly changing, but environmental advocates and social pressure are the most effective means of changing public behavior.
2.3 Energy and Resources
While energy is needed to fuel a modern society, government should not be subsidizing any particular form of energy. We oppose all government control of energy pricing, allocation, and production.
2.4 Government Finance and Spending
All persons are entitled to keep the fruits of their labor. We call for the repeal of the income tax, the abolishment of the Internal Revenue Service and all federal programs and services not required under the U.S. Constitution. We oppose any legal requirements forcing employers to serve as tax collectors. Government should not incur debt, which burdens future generations without their consent. We support the passage of a "Balanced Budget Amendment" to the U.S. Constitution, provided that the budget is balanced exclusively by cutting expenditures, and not by raising taxes.
2.5 Money and Financial Markets
We favor free-market banking, with unrestricted competition among banks and depository
institutions of all types. Individuals engaged in voluntary exchange should be free to use as money
any mutually agreeable commodity or item. We support a halt to inflationary monetary policies and
unconstitutional legal tender laws.
2.6 Monopolies and Corporations
We defend the right of individuals to form corporations, cooperatives and other types of companies based on voluntary association. We seek to divest government of all functions that can be provided by non-governmental organizations or private individuals. We oppose government subsidies to business, labor, or any other special interest. Industries should be governed by free markets.
2.7 Labor Markets
We support repeal of all laws which impede the ability of any person to find employment. We oppose government-fostered forced retirement. We support the right of free persons to associate or not associate in labor unions, and an employer should have the right to recognize or refuse to recognize a union. We oppose government interference in bargaining, such as compulsory arbitration or imposing an obligation to bargain.
2.8 Education
Education, like any other service, is best provided by the free market, achieving greater quality and efficiency with more diversity of choice. Schools should be managed locally to achieve greater accountability and parental involvement. Recognizing that the education of children is inextricably linked to moral values, we would return authority to parents to determine the education of their children, without interference from government. In particular, parents should have control of and responsibility for all funds expended for their children's education.
2.9 Health Care
We favor restoring and reviving a free market health care system. We recognize the freedom of
individuals to determine the level of health insurance they want, the level of health care they want,
the care providers they want, the medicines and treatments they will use and all other aspects of
their medical care, including end-of-life decisions. People should be free to purchase health
insurance across state lines.
2.10 Retirement and Income Security
Retirement planning is the responsibility of the individual, not the government. Libertarians would
phase out the current government-sponsored Social Security system and transition to a private
voluntary system. The proper and most effective source of help for the poor is the voluntary efforts
of private groups and individuals. We believe members of society will become more charitable and
civil society will be strengthened as government reduces its activity in this realm.
3.0 Securing Liberty
The protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of government. Government is constitutionally limited so as to prevent the infringement of individual rights by the government itself. The principle of non-initiation of force should guide the relationships between governments.
3.1 National Defense
We support the maintenance of a sufficient military to defend the United States against aggression.
The United States should both avoid entangling alliances and abandon its attempts to act as
policeman for the world. We oppose any form of compulsory national service.
3.2 Internal Security and Individual Rights
The defense of the country requires that we have adequate intelligence to detect and to counter
threats to domestic security. This requirement must not take priority over maintaining the civil
liberties of our citizens. The Constitution and Bill of Rights shall not be suspended even during time
of war. Intelligence agencies that legitimately seek to preserve the security of the nation must be
subject to oversight and transparency. We oppose the government's use of secret classifications to
keep from the public information that it should have, especially that which shows that the
government has violated the law.
3.3 International Affairs
American foreign policy should seek an America at peace with the world. Our foreign policy should
emphasize defense against attack from abroad and enhance the likelihood of peace by avoiding
foreign entanglements. We would end the current U.S. government policy of foreign intervention,
including military and economic aid. We recognize the right of all people to resist tyranny and
defend themselves and their rights. We condemn the use of force, and especially the use of
terrorism, against the innocent, regardless of whether such acts are committed by governments or by
political or revolutionary groups.
3.4 Free Trade and Migration
We support the removal of governmental impediments to free trade. Political freedom and escape
from tyranny demand that individuals not be unreasonably constrained by government in the
crossing of political boundaries. Economic freedom demands the unrestricted movement of human
as well as financial capital across national borders. However, we support control over the entry into
our country of foreign nationals who pose a credible threat to security, health or property.
3.5 Rights and Discrimination
We condemn bigotry as irrational and repugnant. Government should not deny or abridge any individual's rights based on sex, wealth, race, color, creed, age, national origin, personal habits, political preference or sexual orientation. Parents, or other guardians, have the right to raise their children according to their own standards and beliefs.
3.6 Representative Government
We support electoral systems that are more representative of the electorate at the federal, state and local levels. As private voluntary groups, political parties should be allowed to establish their own rules for nomination procedures, primaries and conventions. We call for an end to any tax-financed subsidies to candidates or parties and the repeal of all laws which restrict voluntary financing of election campaigns. We oppose laws that effectively exclude alternative candidates and parties, deny ballot access, gerrymander districts, or deny the voters their right to consider all legitimate alternatives.
3.7 Self-Determination
Whenever any form of government becomes destructive of individual liberty, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to agree to such new governance as to them shall seem most likely to protect their liberty.
4.0 Omissions
Our silence about any other particular government law, regulation, ordinance, directive, edict, control, regulatory agency, activity, or machination should not be construed to imply approval.
Now, youu have some facts from the LP itself, with which to take shots at here. Be my guest and examine these facts and compare them to what preconception you have, and you won't find anything that is in direct conflict of the US Constitution. Have fun getting aquainted with the real LP.
You have no idea WHATSOEVER what libertarianism is.
You just made up a story and call the antagonist "libertarian". I can make up a story about a child molester the same way and call the antagonist "statist".
Your level of ignorance is pathetic and inexcusable.
There hasn't been a definition of Libertarianism in the OP so everyone here is responding to a false premise, something I see sadly around here too much. I have listed the formal platforms of the LP and those who disagree with them should cite the platform and then make a cogent, rational and intelligent argument for or against it.
Otherwise, one is merely wasting their time repsonding to bs that someone thinks they know about Libertarianism. Have fun......
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