Dem lawmakers flee from Wis. Capitol ahead of union vote (Feingold, military)

[mb1547]

Originally Posted by High_Plains_Retired

Ironically one Democratic Senator was heard to say: "The story around the world is the rush to democracy. The story in Wisconsin is the end of the democratic process."

The end of the democratic process by trying to forcefully shut down unions, and their right to collectively bargain, simply because you disapprove of their very existence. That's what he was getting at, and the Senators left the state to essentially tell the R's where they could shove it.

[High_Plains_Retired]

Originally Posted by mb1547

The end of the democratic process by trying to forcefully shut down unions, and their right to collectively bargain, simply because you disapprove of their very existence. That's what he was getting at, and the Senators left the state to essentially tell the R's where they could shove it.

I won't divert this thread by explaining the Democratic process but I'll give you a hint. It entails elected officials voting against something you do not agree with, not running away like children.

[mb1547]

The Senators left the state to try to force the governor back to the bargaining table to try to work out some type of compromise with the unions--he's refused to even talk to them, and wants to pass legislation that essentially shuts them down. A vote can't be held in the Senate unless there is at least one member of the D party there, so the Dem's left town as a show of complete disgust with the governor. According to police estimates, 13,000 people showed up at a rally in Madison the other day because they were so upset about this, and today there was a line around the statehouse for blocks (plus the building itself was packed) of people demanding to talk to their state senator or rep about this--the numbers of people raising a stink about this are growing--not declining. I think middle class people are pretty much at the end of their rope over the economy, and the way they've become the R whipping boys, and things are starting to blow up. The same thing is starting in Ohio.

[andrea3821]

Omigosh! I didn't know they had found them already. This is so pathetic. They are shirking their duties as public servants and letting down the people of WI on the taxpayers' dime. They will have to show up at some point. The Repubs are waiting at the capitol for them to come back so they can get things done, until then, state gov't is at a standstill. What a sad state of affairs.

[AnUnidentifiedMale]

I don't see a problem with that.

[mb1547]

Originally Posted by High_Plains_Retired

I won't divert this thread by explaining the Democratic process but I'll give you a hint. It entails elected officials voting against something you do not agree with, not running away like children.

Just like the abuse of the filibuster in the Senate by the R's--one Senator can stall a bill so it never reaches a vote, unless the other side has over 60 votes? The Democrats are just using the tools they have available to them. I also call 13,000 people showing up to demand an explanation from the governor for his behavior--it's outrageous--about as big a showing of "democracy in action" as you can get.

[jeffington]

Originally Posted by maja

AHA! Hide 'N Seek is over...

Update: Fleeing Wisconsin Dems Found Hiding Out at Illinois Resort | The Blaze

Cowardice is as Democracts do

[mb1547]

Originally Posted by andrea3821

Omigosh! I didn't know they had found them already. This is so pathetic. They are shirking their duties as public servants and letting down the people of WI on the taxpayers' dime. They will have to show up at some point. The Repubs are waiting at the capitol for them to come back so they can get things done, until then, state gov't is at a standstill. What a sad state of affairs.

No--they're standing up for their constituents by essentially telling the R's to go jump in a lake until they're willing to at least be reasonable. If "government" wants to do something really wrong, good people have a responsibility to fight back through the system, and that's what they're doing..

[Mircea]

Originally Posted by PatDJohns

I wonder if people really understood the history of unions in the US if they would be so quick to demonize them.

I understand, much better than you.

You want to ignore the fact that in the 1920s when union activity began to rise, the US was still going through rapid industrialization. I certainly hope you're not going to claim that the US is still industrializing, because that would be quite silly.

I am sympathetic to the plight of engineers, firemen and coal-men on trains. Working 12-hours a day next to a boiler kicking off all that heat, it must have been grueling. The unions did improve their working condition, and the engineers, firemen and coal-men only had to work four hours at a time next the boiler.

The problem is, steam engines have not been in use for more than 60 years, and the engineers now work in air-conditioned/climate-controlled cabs on diesel-electric trains, yet the unions insist that this "4 hour" limitation still be in the contract.

So how many engineers does it take to go from Cincinnati to Cleveland? It takes two, and they both get paid 2 hours of overtime for a 10-hour round trip and each only works 4 hours.

The railroad unions are one of the reasons why the railroads lost their competitive edge against trucking industry (even though rail workers are willing to give that clause in the contract). And how'd that work out for everyone?

I guess you enjoy throwing away your tax dollars to perennially repair your roads from damage caused by trucks and I won't even get into the oil usage that causes you pay more for gasoline.

You don't even seem to be aware of a federal agency in the Department of Labor called OSHA. The reason facilities are well-lit to the proper foot-candles which increases productivity, and enhances worker safety, is because those are OSHA regulations, not something in union contracts. OSHA regulations stipulate the minimum number of foot-candles of light based on the type of environment. That's why warehouses are well-lit now and not dark creepy places where employees were always getting injured because they couldn't see anything.

Are you so incompetent that you can't negotiate the wages and benefits you need with your employer? Maybe you should seek out a therapist instead of a union. Get some self-help books. Go to one of those motivational seminars. Hypno-therapy.

Originally Posted by PatDJohns

I really fear for where the average US worker, a return to pre-union work conditions would not make many people happy.

People are not going to be happy no matter what happens. Every day you look in the mirror you should tell yourself that this is as good as it gets, because, this is as good as it gets.

You can ignore your country's history if you want, but ignoring your history doesn't alter the reality that your country engaged in a destructive foreign policy that oppressed others and stole their wealth and resources, and refused to invest in the future of other countries.

That created an un-level playing field, heck not even a playing field, a vertical wall with the Americans on top in terms of standard of living and wages, and the rest of the world on the bottom fighting over the dregs.

And now BRIC is here and they're doing everything you should have and could have done. Sharing profits, investing heavily in the infrastructure of countries, and lifting those people up to a better life style.

You can't stop it.

Your wages and standard of living will continually decline while the rest of the world experiences an increase in the standard of living and wages.

And that's how it is going to be for the rest of this Century, until an equilibrium is reached and you're making maybe $0.50/hour more than the rest of the world. So get used to it.

If you think unions will protect your jobs and wages, that ain't gonna happen (and it has never happened). The only thing unions will do is accelerate your decline into obscurity.

[mb1547]

Originally Posted by jeffington

Cowardice is as Democracts do

They aren't being cowards--this isn't about trying to hide from an unpopular vote. They're essentially telling the governor he can "shove it." That's not exactly being a chicken.