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It is easier for idiots to buy on margin when there is nearly free short term money available. The real speculators never lived in the houses they bought and sold when some profit was available. They never intended to keep them for very long. They got out, some with considerable winnings, when the getting was good and left the mess for the folks just trying to find a place to live.
Our major policy failure was guaranteeing the loans, before and after the fact, that fueled the speculation. The people that did this should have had their investments collapse just like previous bubbles.
Umm... This is impossible, something is not right... I actually agree with you on this.
Though, I will say, those who were flipping houses like crazy couldn't achieve such if consumers refused to pay such exorbitant prices that developed from such schemes. That is, if people would have done such, then those who were doing such speculation would have been left holding the bag and not the average buyer.
My wife and I took extra means to avoid buying in that market. It wasn't always comfortable or easy as it would be to simply just pay for the over inflated homes, but we also avoided getting stuck with ridiculously over priced home.
I lived in California during the time prices started to go up. The simple fact is that these houses were not worth what they were being sold for even if they were being appraised as such. Again, that was true in the 60's then again in the 70's then again in the 80's then up and up an up through the dot.com era. Calif. real estate has always, always, always rebounded and doubled down. It actually will again, but its going to take a lot longer than usual for sure. But when it comes down to it, and the economy rebounds and life gets back to normal, Calif will be the best and the brightest as always. You can't beat that state and the finest in the country and everyone wants to live there.
That is the entire problem here. You relied on these "institutions" to tell you the value of something when common sense was screaming they were not worth such. People have to own homes. Its the way of the being American. Buying homes that are more expensive to live in Calif. (and we had just spent 7 years in Tampa and were fresh back home). You need to buy something, and you buy what is affordable and that moment and what is deemed to be by all the banking and mortgage experts to be a good realiable deal and that they were willing to make loans on. Ours is only one of thousands of idividual stories or examples of why their particular house hit the skids by any means.
I don't care how many market experts you get to back you up, the fact is, these homes were not of that worth. A simple calculation of cost of living and the wage index should have shown you that the home price was far above any reasonable value to which the average wage (or even above average) could not even remotely justify. quite easy to say....but completely unrealistic in the real world. Thats simply Monday morning quarterbacking. Our particular home was actually quite reasonable as the people needed to sell, it was an area that more retired people would want to go to to get out of the crazy areas families had to live in, we intended to retire there. There were no "calculations" to be made that would have made us change our mind on this particular house. The housing economy tanked along with so many other people who may have done bad deals, and crazy loans created even those of us to "did it right" to tank right along with them.
The homes were a money sink just on that very basic concept and as I said, anyone who was paying attention should have seen it. Even those of us who were adept and buying and selling houses for over 40 years didn't see that these bankers on wall street were running scams, knew it and cheated the country out of our great housing industry. It wasn't the "price of housing" that did it. This was entirely the fault of greed and corruption at the top of the food chain. Shame on them.
You know what the irony of the situation is? People are pointing to the mortgage companies and the appraisals as a fault, but the simple fact is that if people didn't accept the prices of homes, they would have dropped. My wife and I were looking to buy about the time of the price jumps in California, but when the houses doubled and tripled in less than 6 months, we came to the conclusion that market was being pushed into a fad craze. Well, then you were late to the market, you actually got lucky, I doubt you were just being "smart".....don't blame those of us that also did not buy when the housing was doubling and tripling.....we were not even living in a part of Calif. that happened in to begin with.
That is, much like the collectible market, there was no "natural" value determining their worth. It was strictly being pushed through the fad to which was driving the prices so far up that loan companies could not finance people without using various tricks and methods to get people to qualify. It as crazy, but again, it happened at least 4 times in my adult life, and always rebounded and doubled.
In the end, as unfortunate as it is, you were in control here, you agreed to pay that price for the home and regardless of the appraisal, "you" accepted that the home was worth that much. It was worth more than we paid for it!The power was entirely within your hands the whole time. Nobody was forcing you to pay that much and nobody forced you to accept the loan or the home. You are bein ridiculous and redundant. If you've read all my posts on the subject you would know we weren't one of "those people", we were simply collateral damge on the whole industry tanking. We didn't make any errors. I REPEAT, WE WERE NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT SCREWED UP. WE DID IT RIGHT, WE BOUGHT AT A GOOD AND FAIR PRICE, WE BOUGHT WITH A PROPER LOAN.You decided to. You can blame it on others for misinforming you, but as I said, the issue was quite telling in the dramatic change of home prices and trying to claim that you were cheated because some institution claimed that a 100-400% increase in a homes value in the time that they rose was "reasonable" is simply a very poor assessment on your part.I won't bother to repeat myself here.
Homes do not shoot up that high,exactly, in that short of time unless there is something fishy going on. Anyone who stopped for a moment to think about that knew this. Which is why I did not buy a home for a ridiculous pricenor did we.....we were already well established in the home when the prices went way up, we simply didn't sell quick enough as my husband was looking for a "post retirement" job and we simply didn't get it sold before the crash. and left the state that was acting like a teenage girl at a boy band concert with the home prices. it made no sense, it was a severe bubble, and common sense dictated it was a very risky venture if you were concerned about your homes value being safety net investment.
again, you aren't paying attenton to what I was saying.
The issue is extremely complex I understand, that there were many players that contributed to the problem, but this was pretty clear.you are mixing posts or not understanding me.
You claim you have done this before, that you were informed in your decision and that you did not trust the banking system, I said we DID trust the banking system, like all of us old baby boomers. Our bankers were the old "stand up" guys of yesteryear. We totally trusted them.yet why did you buy the home then?
You have in past posts pointed out that it was appraised at that value, so you placed your trust in such.Of courseYou claim that the banks forced an appraisal means of their choice,no I didn't yet this did not bring about any concern?apparantly mixing postings with someone else.
You watched a housing market shoot up dramatically, yet you did not do any analysis of past home values and their increases over the last 50 years to see if this trend in value was not unprecedented?actually it was quite common in Calif. Did you do an cost of living analysis and compare the wage index with home values to see that they were severely out of sync?My husband is not only (or was a licensed RE) but he is a financial CEO and COO and runs 18 bio-tech tech companies under a single Fund company. I'm not saying that correctly, but then I don't have to.
And after all of that, the other poster here pointed out some very odd risks that you took when purchasing this home so close to retirement, was this not a dangerous move? of course not, homes were the best and safest investment that American system ever had. Why would we worry. We were going to live in the house.
My point is, you claim you were experienced, did not trust not trueand were informed, yet all that I have asked you were strong indicators of the issue. Those things were tell tale signs of the market being a bubble and not supported by slow and steady growth to which a safe investment would provide.
You will do what you have to do as it concerns the survival and well being of yourself, but that is not the objection I have with your responses.
The problem I have is your unwillingness to accept you made some very poor decisions no we didn't, and you took risksno we didn't that were apparent if you had spent the time evaluating them. You now go on to blame the industry (to which I agree they share some responsibility, as well as the government) and you seem to disregard all responsibility of the buyer to which this issue could have never reached such levels if buyers were paying attention more and not looking at the housing market as if it was a fad trading card game.
we didn't, we bought a normal house at a normal price, with a normal loan, at a normal time. Nothing we did was careless, or dumb, or risky or anything else. We like many thousands of other people were among the collateral damage of an industry that had become corrupted, along with some bad de-regulation policies by the government. Everyone ELSE bankrupted, and short saled and we were stuck in the MIDDLE of one street of houses where there were 12 other foreclosures going on, bringing the value of our WELL PRICED home down with theirs. What my whole point is, DO NOT PAINT EVERYONE THAT GOT STUCK IN THE HOUSING CRISIS WITH THE SAME BRUSH. a MILLION stories are out there,along with ours that are honest, but at some point in time I MAY have to walk away....and I won't feel even slightly guilty if that happens.
again, you aren't paying attenton to what I was saying.
Actually, I am paying attention quite well, though you are refusing to accept the responsibility of your issue which is why you can't accept my comments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
Again, that was true in the 60's then again in the 70's then again in the 80's then up and up an up through the dot.com era. Calif. real estate has always, always, always rebounded and doubled down. It actually will again, but its going to take a lot longer than usual for sure. But when it comes down to it, and the economy rebounds and life gets back to normal, Calif will be the best and the brightest as always. You can't beat that state and the finest in the country and everyone wants to live there.
Not at the levels that existed with this. There were pockets dependent on area which had increases and small drops as such, but nothing compared to this wide spread fad.
Homes have as a national average never experienced such volatile value changes. Localized influence of such spikes have been relative to the wage index following suit. This was not the case with the housing bubble. It mimicked dot.com bubble which was equally based on no solid foundation of principal.
Home values doubled, tripled, and in some cases quadrupled in various areas of California (as well as many places across the country) to which the wage index could not reasonably sustain its value. Loan requirements used to be that of 20% down and having to show you made annually a 1/4-1/3 of your homes value.
This is where loan manipulation stepped in which had a combination of government influence and that of irresponsible lender applications. In order to be able to qualify people, they had to use various loan practices that are unethical and with high risk. This practice was not a historical normality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
People have to own homes. Its the way of the being American. Buying homes that are more expensive to live in Calif. (and we had just spent 7 years in Tampa and were fresh back home). You need to buy something, and you buy what is affordable and that moment and what is deemed to be by all the banking and mortgage experts to be a good realiable deal and that they were willing to make loans on. Ours is only one of thousands of idividual stories or examples of why their particular house hit the skids by any means.
People have to own homes? That is pure garbage. People have to live responsibly and the American dream was not a stupid home, but the individual liberty of being able to pursue ownership of property. Pursue, that is that they "could" own property if they worked hard enough and were able to afford it. That they could succeed IF they put in the effort to take advantage of opportunities to achieve such. You make it sound like people were "entitled" to homes and that it was a requirement of citizenship to own one.
I am sorry, but your idea of what you needed to do is beyond rational course and defies responsible behavior. You sound like a teenager going on about how they "have to have" and they "had to do this and that" when the fact of the matter is that have actually = want.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
quite easy to say....but completely unrealistic in the real world. Thats simply Monday morning quarterbacking. Our particular home was actually quite reasonable as the people needed to sell, it was an area that more retired people would want to go to to get out of the crazy areas families had to live in, we intended to retire there. There were no "calculations" to be made that would have made us change our mind on this particular house. The housing economy tanked along with so many other people who may have done bad deals, and crazy loans created even those of us to "did it right" to tank right along with them.
Actually, I was talking about the real world. /boggle
It isn't rocket science to do an evaluation of what I explained. It is called making informed and rational decisions. You go on about "reality" and yet you were the one spouting off some naive ideological claim about people "having to" own homes.
Reasonable in your situation was being able to afford the home you agreed to buy for the price you paid. If you couldn't afford the home, you shouldn't have bought it and if you couldn't afford to live in the area, you should have moved to an area you could afford. This is what I am talking about. It is called "being responsible" it is truly the assessing of "need" over "want" in that of a realistic measure.
You were "wanting" and your "wants" made you disregard that which was "reasonable for YOU" and it drove you to extend yourself taking risks that the value of your home would in turn be the retirement lotto win. Your behavior is what caused a lot of the home prices in many areas to go through the roof and since you were being so unreasonable in your evaluation, the lenders were also taking risks on the loans hoping they could also cash in on your risk.
Those "crazy loans" would never have existed without "crazy buyers" applying for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
Even those of us who were adept and buying and selling houses for over 40 years didn't see that these bankers on wall street were running scams, knew it and cheated the country out of our great housing industry. It wasn't the "price of housing" that did it. This was entirely the fault of greed and corruption at the top of the food chain. Shame on them.
Emotional rhetoric. Those buying and selling were getting partial loans (under short time limits to payoff) and trying to flip the homes fast to turn a quick buck. It worked great for a while, but the behavior caused home values to skyrocket as they flipped for profit over and over and the standard home buyer even more ignorant of the issue got into it thinking they were making a good investment.
Who is responsible. The buyer is responsible for being stupid and paying unreasonable prices for homes. The lender is responsible for creating loans and policies to be able to attend to the buyer when it was a stupid risk. The insurance companies were responsible for stupidly insuring them and then crookedly bundling them in ways to make them appear as good loans and the government is responsible for pushing stupid policies to approve buyers who should not be approved for the loans.
Yes, it is not entirely the buyers fault, but to point the finger at everyone else is simply a desperate irresponsible move to evade dealing with the responsibilities of the issue.
You talk of greedy? A person who gets a loan for a home that they can not afford at the hopes of it fast increasing in price so they can get a pay off... that is a greedy... and it is that greed that leads to irresponsible action.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
Well, then you were late to the market, you actually got lucky, I doubt you were just being "smart".....don't blame those of us that also did not buy when the housing was doubling and tripling.....we were not even living in a part of Calif. that happened in to begin with.
Lucky? The moment they shot up in price I saw they were unreasonable jumps. Watching a home go from 160k to 380k in less than a year was not reasonable, it was not normal, it was nothing short of a huge smack to the head that it was a false market, a manipulated market and the values of the homes would be based on air, nothing more. It was observation and responsible attention to the issue that caused me to avoid getting into the market. It was the same thing that led me to assess the value of the current states direction in economic and political factors to which I left the state and moved to a more reasonable one.
I am not blaming you for buying before, I thought while it was certainly fortuitous of those who had bought before the bubble, it was however something unrealistic to see hold for most. Those who bought and sold before it jumped and early made a killing, much like those in the beanie baby market.
You said these prices were already high when you got here? Did it ever occur to you to look into housing prices for the state and area for the last 20 years? Did you do any research about the state you moved to? Did you also not realize California was suffering from many issues? It had extreme taxes in all fronts, poor business practice (increasing costs), terrible corruption with its utility companies (Gray Davis was recalled due to the issue) which created government encouraged monopolies. Environmental laws that are bleeding the state to death and causing mass increasing in prices across the board. It never occurred to you to look into such?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
It as crazy, but again, it happened at least 4 times in my adult life, and always rebounded and doubled.
Really? Care to provide the analysis for those trends for us? Homes did increase in price and eventually doubled over time, but to claim they were like this, well... now you are stretching and need to provide some proper support for this claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
It was worth more than we paid for it!
Really? If it was worth more than you paid for it, why is it worth 1/2 of that value now? Worth is not what the market determines, worth is what the consumer is willing to pay. A true value of something is its natural price which is the cost it takes to produce it and bring it viably to market by the manufacturer.
The homes natural price was far above what you paid for it. Its market price may have been below, but markets are volatile. If you are going to claim that the market is your safety gauge, then you might as well have dumped all of your money into the stock market and then complained when it fell.
A home was only a safe investment in the past because it was a long term investment that over time would eventually pay for itself. Though that trend was not applicable when prices burst to the levels the did. It did not become a safe investment market, it became a fad trading market.
You bought the home according to what you thought it was worth, it should make no difference if it drops below that, it was worth that to you, unless... you were gambling on what it was worth to others (market). You gambled when you stopped searching for a home and began to look for some fast return investment. This is exactly what caused instability in the market in the first place. People stopped treating homes as long term stable investments and began to treat them as if they were a day trading commodity to make a quick buck. You can play that game, but it is risky and you better be willing to lose when you do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
You are bein ridiculous and redundant. If you've read all my posts on the subject you would know we weren't one of "those people", we were simply collateral damge on the whole industry tanking. We didn't make any errors. I REPEAT, WE WERE NOT ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT SCREWED UP. WE DID IT RIGHT, WE BOUGHT AT A GOOD AND FAIR PRICE, WE BOUGHT WITH A PROPER LOAN.
Then why are you complaining? Why are you walking away? You say you "did it right" and you "bought it at a good and fair price" with a "proper loan". So why are you walking away?
If it is because the house dropped below loan value? Then... well apparently it wasn't a "good and fair" price to you because your contingency was that it would grow in price or stay at that value, a risk of the market, not a value of the home.
You are one of those people. My friend bought a home at a higher value, though he did for other reasons (location, close to work and family, he like the house and its build, etc...) he bought it for a lot more than its actual value because he "wanted" it and he was completely willing to accept the cost of the home at the time to meet those "wants". Now his home wasn't as ridiculous as others in price, but he is about 50k under his loan. It didn't matter to him as this was his home, agreed to the price and believed it was worth it for what he "wanted".
So he is keeping his home, though you are not? Why? You claim you bought the home for several "tangible" reasons, but you can't afford it now, though... that begs the question, how could you afford it before?
Are you saying you went out and got a loan that you could not reasonable meet its terms? The more you respond, the more it appears you were playing the fast return game trying to buy a home and turn a buck on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
I won't bother to repeat myself here.
No need to, it is evident your position is one of not wishing to hold to the responsibility of your choices as you blame other factors for an issue that really is something of your own choice and condition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 60sfemi
Homes do not shoot up that high,exactly, in that short of time unless there is something fishy going on. Anyone who stopped for a moment to think about that knew this. Which is why I did not buy a home for a ridiculous pricenor did we.....we were already well established in the home when the prices went way up, we simply didn't sell quick enough as my husband was looking for a "post retirement" job and we simply didn't get it sold before the crash. and left the state that was acting like a teenage girl at a boy band concert with the home prices. it made no sense, it was a severe bubble, and common sense dictated it was a very risky venture if you were concerned about your homes value being safety net investment.
Your home value in that area was still too high when you bought it. Before the national bubble hit, there were local bubbles as well. We even have them here in Texas. In some places, the homes are stupidly overpriced, far beyond their natural price. In others, the home values are very good, balanced, and reasonable.
The same was in California. There were areas that the homes were on the verge of stupidity high and people getting in over their heads in those areas (defaulting) was quite common. Unless your home is 4000+ sq feet on 1-2 acres of land with all the frills and located in a very prime location, you paid way too much for it even at 426k. It was over inflated then,but but locally.
Those types of places took the hardest hit after the Bubble burst nationally because they were already over inflated anyway.
The fact that you "lost out" on your time window to make ridiculous profit on your home is not the markets fault. The market finally reached its reality check and came crashing down. Anyone who was playing the game of the market was just as responsible as everyone else in it.
You missed out on your window to cash in on the volatile market and your local market crashed closer to the levels it should be as well. It is unfortunate, and I am sorry for the hardships you are dealing with, but for you to dismiss the responsibility here is... well... to be honest... typical of the problems this nation is having. If you can not accept the responsibility here, which many are attempting to evade through out the country as well, then you will put us right back into these silly markets again because at the end of the day, you can't be cheated on a sale to which you never buy. If more people understood this, we wouldn't have bubbles in the first place.
Of course it's wrong to borrow money and walk away from the debt.
Of course, with the collapse of our economy and job market, and the nation-destroying crimes of the elite who destroyed our nation in just the last 40 years, minor crimes like this won't even register on the Richter Scale.
We'll be living in the world of Mad Max soon, and those who aren't prepared will be the first to perish.
we didn't, we bought a normal house at a normal price, with a normal loan, at a normal time. Nothing we did was careless, or dumb, or risky or anything else. We like many thousands of other people were among the collateral damage of an industry that had become corrupted, along with some bad de-regulation policies by the government. Everyone ELSE bankrupted, and short saled and we were stuck in the MIDDLE of one street of houses where there were 12 other foreclosures going on, bringing the value of our WELL PRICED home down with theirs. What my whole point is, DO NOT PAINT EVERYONE THAT GOT STUCK IN THE HOUSING CRISIS WITH THE SAME BRUSH. a MILLION stories are out there,along with ours that are honest, but at some point in time I MAY have to walk away....and I won't feel even slightly guilty if that happens.
YOU made this industry happen. Can you not understand this simple concept? The industry could never exist without the consumer. This is the main concept behind a free market. YOU and I are responsible for the value of the market. IF we both go out like idiots and pay exorbitant amounts for a product, our irresponsible behavior if it catches on will force the prices up. If we refuse to pay such prices, it forces the price down.
How big is your home? How much property is it on? How new is it when you bought it? Whats its location like? etc...
426k should be a home at least 3-4k sqft, new or remodeled to be near it, good quality internals and externals, on a minimum of 1 acre of land in a nice location.
If you paid for anything less without something else being increased (smaller house vs more land, etc..) then you paid way too much for the home.
I see these home buying shows on TV and people are shopping in CA for a small closet that is old and barely able to fit on its land while it is shoved up to another home or building and in a location that is poor and they are paying 100's of thousands of dollars for this. There is no reasonable argument to be made in the homes "value" with these.
The only reasonable argument that someone can make is location and how that homes location and specific feature suits them personally otherwise the home is a huge money pit.
That is what it comes down to.
My grandfather was a reputable building contractor for 50 years and these homes people are buying for that much cost NOWHERE near that much to build (though there are some that are increased dramatically due to local laws and permits which severely increase the homes price). In many cases the homes are selling for profits of 100k+ for the builders (as opposed to my grandfathers time where he only pulled in about 1-5k in the beginning of his career per home and 10-15k near the end). The only reason they are making so much is because people aren't thinking about the value of what they buy and as long as a lender will allow them to meet a monthly payment they are willing to pay, they will often pay way too much for the homes.
My biggest problem with your position is that you claim everything was fine and you accepted the value, and now you want a refund because it isn't worth what it used to be.
I used an example before, but you ignored it. You wanting to walk out on your responsibilities to the agreement you fully accepted concerning the value of your home would be like the seller coming back to you have your home hit 625k and demanding you pay him more because he didn't realize it would increase that much. It is beyond absurd.
Of course it's wrong to borrow money and walk away from the debt.
Of course, with the collapse of our economy and job market, and the nation-destroying crimes of the elite who destroyed our nation in just the last 40 years, minor crimes like this won't even register on the Richter Scale.
We'll be living in the world of Mad Max soon, and those who aren't prepared will be the first to perish.
A person who ends up filing bankruptcy because they can no longer afford their home due to various life issues that came up, I am not upset with. While yes, they may have been able to avoid such by planning a bit better, they are not the problem people in my opinion.
the problem people are those who think walking away because their homes value isn't as much as they paid for it is somehow justification for walking away.
These people are the ones that created the mess and they will be the ones who create the next mess. Sure, companies and corrupt governments did a lot to make this happen, but their contribution is trying to profit on (and encourage) the irresponsible people who are truly the ignition source of the problem. Without the buyers themselves, the market can not exist. It begins with them and it ends with them.
Location: Georgia, on the Florida line, right above Tallahassee
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Savoir Faire
It really depends. If you view your house as an investment, than you have to ask your self if it makes financial sense to walk away. 200k to 100k is really not that big of a difference. Like others said, you have to live somewhere. Now if you owe 700K and it is worth 350K and your mortage is $4,000, but you can rent a similar house down the street for $2,000, it makes little financial sense to hold on to it.
I mean, if you signed up for a 3 year phone contract at $100 bucks a month, and you see a deal for the same plan at $50 a month, would you break your contract?
That's a great example. And while you're doing it, you see the company that financed the homes can't pay their bills, and someone has a big truck pulled up next to them and is shoveling them huge chunks of dollar bills...while the company repo man is walking up demanding that you "do the right thing." Gimme a break.
That's a great example. And while you're doing it, you see the company that financed the homes can't pay their bills, and someone has a big truck pulled up next to them and is shoveling them huge chunks of dollar bills...while the company repo man is walking up demanding that you "do the right thing." Gimme a break.
Dollar, dollar bill, Ya'll.
Oh I see, it is the "Well billy does it!" defense. I didn't like the bailout, nor did most common sense people. If you have a problem with such, you vote those dirty pieces of garbage out so we can reverse such (if possible) or keep it from happening again.
Anyone who claims they are just in committing a wrong because another did is simply arguing to take the place of the other injustice. A society who functions as such will fail, and they will deserve it.
That is, they become that which they blame and any hardship they experience will be that of full compensation for their actions.
I guess you would get to keep all the lavish vacations and meals out and designer clothes and other luxuries you bought with all the second mortages you took out.
I can't really answer that question because I wouldn't use my home like an ATM to get underwater with my mortgage in the first place.
What? Why comment if you don't understand the question. Your poor response shows that you're not a home owner. People bought houses and then the market collapsed. Few of them were speculators. Most commonly it doesn't have anything to do with luxury clothes.
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Well,
