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So somebody has posted a few interviews with Swedes who like things they way they are. One could then post some interviews with Americans who like their system, or Chileans who like theirs. What exactly does this prove?
I believe the original post declared the following:
"There are indeed other societies on this planet who manage to make things work for all of their citizens."
Are there? Does redistributing wealth from productive citizens to anyone who can scam the asylum system qualify as "making things work"?
My argument against this proposition is that the Swedish model, at its current trajectory, is unsustainable. The idea that a country can sustain a comprehensive welfare state with its tragically top-heavy demographic pyramid, its nearly 30% youth unemployment, and propensity to import thousands of unproductive, malcontented immigrants, is laughably unrealistic. Things look OK now, but as the dependency ratio accelerates toward more retirees and incoming Somali refugees, the picture will quickly change.
Burn this into your brain and remember you heard it here first: a decade from today Sweden will not be the utopia you think it to be.
Last edited by GlockUnderMyKilt; 04-24-2011 at 10:50 AM..
After the Healthcare debates of last year, i just gave up. These folks like the status quo even when it doesn't work. It's just no use in arguing this stuff.
I know. I agreed with your whole post. No use arguing this stuff, I agree. But I do enjoy seeing who comes out of the woodwork and what the different perspectives are. But you're right. It's often more of a chore to have this sort of discussion on this forum.
So somebody has posted a few interviews with Swedes who like things they way they are. One could then post some interviews with Americans who like their system, or Chileans who like theirs. What exactly does this prove?
I believe the original post declared the following:
"There are indeed other societies on this planet who manage to make things work for all of their citizens."
Are there? Does redistributing wealth from productive citizens to anyone who can scam the asylum system qualify as "making things work"?
My argument against this proposition is that the Swedish model, at its current trajectory, is unsustainable. The idea that a country can sustain a comprehensive welfare state with its tragically top-heavy demographic pyramid, its nearly 30% youth unemployment, and propensity to import thousands of unproductive, malconented immigrants, is laughably unrealistic. Things look OK now, but as the dependency ratio accelerates toward more retirees and incoming Somali refugees, the picture will quickly change.
Burn this into your brain and remember you heard it here first: a decade from today Sweden will not be the utopia you think it to be.
Heh. I heard it first in the 60s actually. Hey, give them a heads-up about the earthquakes when you go to return their rethoric to them.
For half a centuray its been "The model is unsustainable!" It was supposed to be unsustainable in the oil shock in the 70s, the dip of the 80s, the banking crisis of the 90s, the IT bubbepop of the 00s...It is still there, and doing rather well. Over 7 % growth in 2010. Fifty year old predictions still not looking like they are going to line up with reality at any point.
The social policies are trimmed in bad years and expanded in good ones. As long as people in a democracy both want something, and are willing to bear the cost of it on their tax forms, it is perfectly sustainable.
A problem arises only if both those conditions are not met.
So somebody has posted a few interviews with Swedes who like things they way they are. One could then post some interviews with Americans who like their system, or Chileans who like theirs. What exactly does this prove?
I believe the original post declared the following:
"There are indeed other societies on this planet who manage to make things work for all of their citizens."
Are there? Does redistributing wealth from productive citizens to anyone who can scam the asylum system qualify as "making things work"?
My argument against this proposition is that the Swedish model, at its current trajectory, is unsustainable. The idea that a country can sustain a comprehensive welfare state with its tragically top-heavy demographic pyramid, its nearly 30% youth unemployment, and propensity to import thousands of unproductive, malcontented immigrants, is laughably unrealistic. Things look OK now, but as the dependency ratio accelerates toward more retirees and incoming Somali refugees, the picture will quickly change.
Burn this into your brain and remember you heard it here first: a decade from today Sweden will not be the utopia you think it to be.
I am willing to keep an eye on Sweden until I die to see how they are faring. And I suspect that a decade from now the prognosis will not be as dire as you predict.
I was the "somebody" who posted those videos. Fortunately, I am not the type of idiot to believe that just by watching a video of some Swedes talking about their country means I will take everything they say as the end all tell all. I thought it was fun to include some videos. Clearly, you did not think so and it alarmed you that a poster would even refer to these videos. I don't really know how to respond to that.
By the way, dig a bit deeper into the youth unemployment. Its not just immigrant youth but Swedish youth as well. The idea that all immigrants there are malcontent and leeching is really ridiculous. But I guess you have to actually visit the place or read a bit into it to see whats going on.
People don't want to pay for anything they want to receive it for free.
That's why these people get so angry when they read about these models. Many Americans hate the idea of a model of all citizens paying high taxes to contribute (efficiently) to the greater good. It simply does not make sense for them.
Meanwhile, many Americans clamor for the same benefits but are unwilling to accept the idea that we will have to pay for them somehow. Funny.
Heh. I heard it first in the 60s actually. Hey, give them a heads-up about the earthquakes when you go to return their rethoric to them.
Japan heard plenty of warnings about earthquakes. Unfortunately, nobody took any pleasure in returning their rhetoric to them when the inevitable happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader
For half a centuray its been "The model is unsustainable!" It was supposed to be unsustainable in the oil shock in the 70s, the dip of the 80s, the banking crisis of the 90s, the IT bubbepop of the 00s...It is still there, and doing rather well. Over 7 % growth in 2010. Fifty year old predictions still not looking like they are going to line up with reality at any point.
Over 7% growth in 2010? Of what?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader
The social policies are trimmed in bad years and expanded in good ones. As long as people in a democracy both want something, and are willing to bear the cost of it on their tax forms, it is perfectly sustainable.
Yes, people in a democracy will pay for what they're willing to bear the cost for. But those who cheerlead for the Swedish model for the rest of the Western world should understand that most of us aren't content to subsidize every layabout who shows up with an asylum claim.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grim Reader
A problem arises only if both those conditions are not met.
I suspect you'd find that neither of those conditions would be met anywhere but postmodernist, nihilist Sweden.
By the way, dig a bit deeper into the youth unemployment. Its not just immigrant youth but Swedish youth as well. The idea that all immigrants there are malcontent and leeching is really ridiculous. But I guess you have to actually visit the place or read a bit into it to see whats going on.
Who cares whether natives or immigrants are unemployed? The fact is the Swedish welfare system doesn't have enough flow of employed stock to support its welfare system.
But dig a little deeper and I believe you'll find that immigrants contribute to that base of unemployed than the native born do.
Japan heard plenty of warnings about earthquakes. Unfortunately, nobody took any pleasure in returning their rhetoric to them when the inevitable happened.
So an earthquake is somehow comparable to a political forecast that has failed for 50 years? Really? I could make a prediction about killer Weewils from space attacking, and when it fails to happen mutter darkly about people failing to heed warnings about earthquakes as well...it wouldn't make the killer Weewils real.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockUnderMyKilt
Over 7% growth in 2010? Of what?
Swedish economy. Admittedly they are bouncing back from the crisis atm.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockUnderMyKilt
Yes, people in a democracy will pay for what they're willing to bear the cost for. But those who cheerlead for the Swedish model for the rest of the Western world should understand that most of us aren't content to subsidize every layabout who shows up with an asylum claim.
Its been my personal impression that the USA has far more layabouts than Sweden. It does undeniably seem like the US are far more worried by layabouts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GlockUnderMyKilt
I suspect you'd find that neither of those conditions would be met anywhere but postmodernist, nihilist Sweden.
And Canada, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Finland, etc, etc...you know, all those countries that do really well ?
Who cares whether natives or immigrants are unemployed? The fact is the Swedish welfare system doesn't have enough flow of employed stock to support its welfare system.
But dig a little deeper and I believe you'll find that immigrants contribute to that base of unemployed than the native born do.
No, like any other country, Sweden cannot support a major influx of unemployed immigrants. But if you actually care to look , there are some interesting things going on, in terms of their system for educating immigrants as well as the creation of entirely new industries that benefit from the new internationalism.
Of course, we could also just focus completely on the hopelessness of the situation. We might as well also focus on the hopelessness of the USA, where scores of the population barely can make ends meet. Why leave any country out of this hopeless doomsday situation. In fact, I think, with this mindset, its safe to say that the entire planet is f'd. No society is doing anything of worth at all and we might as well throw in the towel because it's all hopeless.
Its been my personal impression that the USA has far more layabouts than Sweden. It does undeniably seem like the US are far more worried by layabouts.
And Canada, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Finland, etc, etc...you know, all those countries that do really well ?
Grim Reader, I agree with you wholeheartedly. In fact, perhaps thats why many Americans worry when they read about these systems. Because as Americans, we actually are aware of far more layabouts in our system. And I'm sorry, but I have some nasty things to say about many people recieving welfare in the US today. I definitely don't agree with people abusing the system but my sense is that this type of abuse happens far more in America and that's why people freak out when they imagine these other models and the potential of increased system abuse to occur.
Canada, Denmark, Norway, Austria, Finland....yup. Despite the fact that everyone is killing themselves in Scandinavia because of the horrible weather and welfare system and despite the fact that in dire places like Austria and Finland waitresses make more than America's typical minimum wage earner- they're still god forsaken places that some feel are en route to doomsday.
Last edited by NomadScribe; 04-24-2011 at 11:43 AM..
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