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The problem is that you yourself have no idea how the Judeo-Christian religion started and developed.
Right. And you do. Thankfully you're here to fill me in about it, huh?
Do you REALLY want to have this discussion with this seminary student? I'd be willing to guess that I've done a lot more study into the issue than you.
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Originally Posted by Strel
Inasmuch as anything can be so proven, and it's just as valid - and in the case of Sumerian and older Babylonian sources, more so - to say that the Jews had access to OLDER prophecies and historical books.
There's even evidence of this in the New Testament - the similarities between the tenets expressed in the Sermon on the Mount and the Upanishads, which are much older, are obvious.
The similarities are striking and undeniable, so much so that it cannot be a coincidence.
Even better, you cannot prove otherwise. Let me remind you once again that the rules of logic that you so like to cite apply to your arguments as well, even when you find them inconvenient.
You can choose to just turn a blind eye to it, as so many fundamentalist Christians choose to do in willful ignorance, or you could broaden your horizons a bit and choose to see it for what the evidence supports: that some moral and ethical principles are universal among mankind, that some stories and parables are far older than most people know, and that mythological and religious plagiarism is nothing new.
It's just that I don't see a reason to believe those myths.
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Do you REALLY think the Jews could be held captive in Babylon for so long without experiencing some cultural influence? Really?
Not at all. Have you seen me suggest otherwise? Of course they were affected. Did it change their teachings or cause them to make stuff up? No...I don't think there is evidence for it. God has held Israel together for thousands of years --that in itself is a miracle. A people group that has no homeland stays together?
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Abram (Abraham) was from Ur, remember? He was a Chaldean.
OK?
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The evidence is strongly against you here.
I honestly don't get what you're implying. They were a separated group that was intensely nationalistic.
Read Ezra and Nehemiah...about the beginning of the return from exile. It is also interesting to note that the books of Chronicles (the last books in the Jewish scriptures) were written after the exile. They don't disagree on any major items from the other historical books, such as 1 and 2 Kings.
It's just that I don't see a reason to believe those myths.
Logic!
So, you must understand why people see no reason to believe in yours especially when the historical evidence suggests that your myth was derived from earlier myths.
How is that unconstitutional? Enforcing religion or making it law goes against separation of church and state, but teaching it as a possible explanation or one option of many isn't.
And of course, many people think that teaching creationism is boneheaded but many people think teaching evolution is boneheaded. No matter what we do, someone will think it's boneheaded and try to oppose it. So why not give kids all the options and let them decide?
Methinks you are teasing Nim, cause....Ummmm.... that would be kind of like teaching that the earth was flat or the sun revolved around the earth, or that the moon was made of cheese....then let the kids decide.
So, you must understand why people see no reason to believe in yours especially when the historical evidence makes suggests that your myth was derived from earlier myths.
Read the 2 and do an honest comparison. Look at the manuscript evidence behind both. Honestly...the apostles willing CHOSE to be martyred over what they saw---not just for a belief system about a guy that supposedly lived hundreds of years prior.
I have the utmost confidence that the text I read was translated from a text that is more accurate than you could believe. We have manuscripts from about 125 AD. Thousands of manuscripts. No other work in antiquity compares to it. You would do well to do a bit of study on how we determine the textual dependability of the Bible before you embarass yourself on this one. There is no contest.
Looks like you've been reading too much Apologist spin by non-scholars like Josh McDowell.
How is that unconstitutional? Enforcing religion or making it law goes against separation of church and state, but teaching it as a possible explanation or one option of many isn't.
Familiar with the Dover trial? It made all the news. Teaching of ID was found to be just another iteration of trying to "wedge" creationism into the science classroom, which was unconstituional.
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And of course, many people think that teaching creationism is boneheaded but many people think teaching evolution is boneheaded. No matter what we do, someone will think it's boneheaded and try to oppose it. So why not give kids all the options and let them decide?
Fortunately it is not up for a vote, just as math is not up for a vote. Let's do that with Astrology vs Astronomy, or how about teaching both current earth/space science vs. ANE cosmology and let them decide. Chemiststry and physics, vs alchemy. Pretty boneheaded, indeed.
Read the 2 and do an honest comparison. Look at the manuscript evidence behind both. Honestly...the apostles willing CHOSE to be martyred over what they saw---not just for a belief system about a guy that supposedly lived hundreds of years prior.
I guess in 2000 years the Koreshians will use this same argument to prove that David Koresh was the 2nd coming. Of course, they will be in a religious war with the Jonesians who will claim just as voraciously that Jim Jones was the actual second coming.
It's just that I don't see a reason to believe those myths.
LOL
That's not a counterargument. The same argument can be said about the OT. You basically punt here.
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Not at all. Have you seen me suggest otherwise? Of course they were affected. Did it change their teachings or cause them to make stuff up? No...I don't think there is evidence for it.
I just gave you the evidence for it. The unmistakeable silimarities in their parables.
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God has held Israel together for thousands of years --that in itself is a miracle. A people group that has no homeland stays together?
And your proof of this is...what? Your beliefs do not constitute proof, and they didn't stay together, did they.
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OK?
I honestly don't get what you're implying. They were a separated group that was intensely nationalistic.
Read Ezra and Nehemiah...about the beginning of the return from exile. It is also interesting to note that the books of Chronicles (the last books in the Jewish scriptures) were written after the exile. They don't disagree on any major items from the other historical books, such as 1 and 2 Kings.
So, they are internally inconsistent to a point. That does not address the issue of the materials' ultimate origins.
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