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I am so glad I came across this. I was chatting with some idio--i mean woman at work today. We got to talking about depression and suicide somehow? Anyway, she has a nephew who is ::whispers:: gay (yes she's one of those people who do that, lol..) and he's apparently the only one in the family.
Years ago, she said he was shot in the stomach and it was an accident. However, she said that she knew he tried to kill himself, and that broke her heart. This is a touching story so far, right?
So I asked her: So, why do you think he tried to kill himself? Was the family mean to him?
"No, we loved him so very much but we just wanted to make sure he goes to heaven, and are very concerned for him"
I said.. Well, maybe that's why.
She doesn't get it.
She says I told my nephew, I love you so much..i don't agree with what you are but you are my nephew and I love you
Sigh.
I told her again, that speaking to him that way is probably what caused the depression in the first place.
People just don't get it.
But then again, she's very religious so I didn't expect her to have ANY common sense what so ever. Just blind beliefs based on an old book.
It's not society at large who is directly attacking gays, but the bystander effect. Whether they approve, or not, people just don't do anything. Apathy is a large part. America, in terms of gay rights, is moving in the correct direction. I believe that they should have already been there for a while, but the pace is picking up.
For starters, people can keep their hateful opinions to themselves. Any "PARENT" who disowns their child due to being gay is mentally unstable and should not have children.
Religion and the religious need to keep their opinions and view to themselves. You think "gay" is wrong, then fine YOU don't be gay (not you Sunkiss, you plural lol) But the others who are? Live and let live.
I have this crazy theory.. that.. if people took care of themselves and minded their own business.. all of the world's troubles would seriously go away.. lol
So much for all the "touchy feely" school programs to boost self esteem huh?
The fact of the matter is that there have always been bullies and there will always be bullies. If a youngster cannot handle this kind of aggressive tactics, good lord, what is going to happen to them when they get into the "real world"?
You know, in getting back to the OP, the young person who wrote that suicide note was obviously very angry. I expect a lot of his trouble came from the fact that he was so hostile and obviously unhappy. I have known kids in school who were vastly "different" and everybody loved them. They were happy and funny and had a wonderful outlook on life.
Am I blaming the kid for being the butt of bullies? Yes, I am. Because life *is* 100 percent what YOU make of it. Taking personal responsibility and not falling into the victim mentality is what needs to be addressed here.
20yrsinBranson
Sorry, but you are not qualified to make any of those claims, and you clearly don't understand depression or how people get into these mental states. Demanding that just need to toughen up is easily the most ignorant statement on suicide and depression ever vomited onto a computer screen.
Really? Then I guess every homosexual on earth is destined to kill themselves.
If people are weak, regardless of whether they are gay or fat or retarded or ugly, then they will suffer. If people are STRONG, they will not give a crap what other people think or say about them.
Weak people die, strong people live. It's survival of the species, it's the way the world is. Get tough or die. But for God's sake quit whining!
20yrsinBranson
Babies are weak. Old people are weak. The mentally handicapped are weak. Do you only draw the line arbitrarily?
-Yes the reason a person "reached" the mental state to kill themselves IS important. However, blaming "society"(which consists of many individuals NOT all of which have discriminated, harmed, or did this to this boy) IMO is not accurate. Instead allow PART of the blame to extend to the INDIVIDUALS at this school who harassed and discriminated against the individual(NOT society as a whole, but the people responsible). And then also TAKE a look at why rather than seeking help, guidance, etc that this boy chose to attempt suicide so drastically as the only way out. Again there are several homosexuals that HAVE been mistreated and bullied--they did not take their own lives. The fact that this person was driven to that edge MEANS that there was already an underlining problem. It wasn't just the "fault" of those individuals making fun of him, but it was also his own way of handling(i.e. not being able to cope effectively) that I see as an issue. Again feel free to disagree.
The term "society" in this case is thrown out a lot, but there are actually two different tangents on that argument. First, I think when someone talks about society, they are talking about the generalized acceptance of bullying. If you have read the posts in this thread and many like it (or hell, ever been observant in your daily life), it's pretty obvious that bullying is too often seen as some kind of right of passage that is supposed to toughen you up. That's a cop-out and an excuse to ignore the tragic consequences. On the other hand, you do have to place blame on those individuals who were directly responsible for the bullying itself. I think the obvious disagreement here is that you don't see any institutional or societal acceptance of bullying, and therefore put far too much blame on the victim. Their one main fault is doing the deed, but all the leadup... look elsewhere. Also, you don't seem to understand how depression works. There are some people who are born with mental imbalances, but most are not... at least not in the way that you are suggesting. Depression can happen to anyone given certain circumstances, and it affects people differently. To say that there must be an underlying condition outside of the bullying is just false. Sometimes people are just *ssholes, and sometimes that's all it takes.
-I NEVER said that being harrassed does not have an effect on the mental state. What I stated was that it is not the normal reason, to allow harrassment to drive you to the edge of killing yourself which is a PERMANENT option that is not irreversible. Anyone that takes such an action--no matter the reason--either has not developed healthy coping skills, or has an underlining issue. The reason he took his life, is the same reason that many homosexuals on this thread have stated that they struggled. They were harrassed, they were mistreated, bullied, etc. They did not take their lives. Yet that was his reason for taking his life. The difference between him and others, is that he did not have the coping abilities necessary to deal with what was being thrown at. The reason a person commits suicide is relevant, but acknowledging that there were obviously other issues relative to the person's inability to handle stuff is JUST as important to me. Thus as I said there is a certain amount of fault that can be placed on the individual, just as their can be a certain amount of fault placed on the "reasons" in which that individual took such an action. But solely placing the blame on "society"(and not even the particular people harassing this boy) is a cop out. It also fails to take into account that this boy obviously had coping issues.
We are talking about teenagers for the most part here, though. Since when have teenagers been the most rational, logical members of humanity? They lack the experience and the maturity to cope with the same level of stress as adults. That doesn't make them weak, that makes them normal. You want to make this out to be that only previously sick people would ever commit suicide, but that's ridiculous. That's like saying that a rich man could never become poor. You fail to even account for that circumstances in life change. Life is not fair, and sometimes the sh*t all comes at once. You may be fine up to that point, and then suddenly, things are falling apart. To a teenager especially, this can be particularly dramatic and devastating. That doesn't mean they had some kind of mental illness previously.
-Meh, once again you are making your own assumptions about me. I never said that bullying wasn't a problem. If you remember this thread is about "SOCIETY" being at fault. That is where I disagreed. Since when does society=the individuals at this particular school that harassed this boy? Instead I would have been more apt to agree with the statement that the way in which SOME INDIVIDUALS within society treat homosexuals CAN lead to severe depression. That is more believable, then saying "yep it's society's fault that gay suicide happened". In terms of bullying--in another thread I already spoke my peace about what I think about it. What do you want me to say: "bullying is wrong?" That is a given. The only thing I have disagreed with, from the start, is the assertion that this is completely society's fault. I said bullying was wrong, and talked about my own experiences. However, acknowledging that bullying is wrong, will not take away from the fact that this boy's "answer" to the bullying was drastic and not normal. No amount of validating the idea that bullying isn't right will take away from that. Obviously, what it does point to is that bullying is a problem(which EVERYONE has admitted it is) we just also said it's been around for a while and that we've all "been there before". But I guess I'm just a happy passive enabler then? Is that what people do now--label people simply because they don't fall for an agenda. Okay, I'll take the label.
Is not society composed of individuals? Do not individuals collectively form societies with norms, rules, laws, culture? Are you familiar with the story of one of Charles Manson's victims, a young woman... While she was being murdered, she screamed for help. There were countless people nearby in the apartment building who heard her, but did nothing. Later, they just said it was none of their business. All of those individuals, leading different lives, all came to the same conclusion to just ignore someone being murdered. Why? A lot has been made about a callous, desesitized society, and I can't think of a better example. The individuals were horrible people, but so was the environment that raised them to do nothing.
-Nope not a contradiction. I stated that these sort of "problems" would not exist if society was more accepting of homosexuality. Problems meaning harassment, severe depression, and mistreatment (which was the issue going on with this young man). I did not say that suicide would not happen. Suicide has always happened regardless, and is not exclusive to homosexuality, or anyone really. Suicides ARE usually exclusive though to those that are mentally ill. So I'll stand by my statement.
You are conflating mental illness with depression and emotional distress. They're not always the same thing. You can have depression and not have a mental illness, and vice versa. BTW, how do you explain kamikazes? Were they mentally ill, or even depressed?
-Where did I say that people have the right to treat others like crap? I said people have a right to feel the way they feel. As I said SEVERAL times, what happened to this young boy was horrific. It shouldn't have happened. And meh, I have my own personal feelings on how bullying should be addressed. I simply don't believe that anti-bullying programs are anything but laughable. It's no different then "Don't Do Drug" programs. That's my opinion. I'd rather see more fighting back, more pride, and strength promoted, rather than to see students forced to watch videos and listen to lectures about the horrors of bullying knowing that the students(a good amount) won't take it very seriously.
Do you have any stats to back up your assertion that such programs don't work? Feelings don't exactly have the same weight as facts.
-Okay yep I'm an enabler. I'm a responsible for not having ANYTHING to do with what happened with this boy. I am responsible for not having anything to do with bullying. I'm responsible for believing that people should just fight back, rather than rely on programs, and teacher protection. Okay yep I'm an enabler. Funny how I enabled this situation. But okay your free to feel that way. You do realize that there are many consequences laid out when students are in school, and that many students find ways around it? A lot of the time the student being bullied won't even tell anyone about it.
And if being suicidal was rational, you'd have a point. But it's not a rational position, but neither is tormenting someone to cause them harm or pain. It would be awesome if they fought back, but since you don't understand depression, you don't understand why they wouldn't. It's very similar to the spousal abuse mentality.
-So I'm trying to be a victim? It's funny how you keep telling me what I am, and what I'm trying to be. Because you just know me so well. I'll tell you what, if I agree with you and say I'm trying to be a victim will that make you feel better? And I'm not playing a game. You're labeling me simply because I don't have the same idea as you, or because you believe me to be ignorant and not "care" (simply because my way of caring differs from yours). Say what you want, but that is definitely the tone of your posts. And no matter how much you label me, or say I'm part of the problem, it won't change my opinions, or beliefs about this subject, nor will it help this situation.
It doesn't make me feel better... because you should know better and yet you don't. I'm labeling you because you are commenting on something you don't understand. You don't understand the thought processes behind suicide. You don't understand why they so often don't fight back. You don't know their mental state before, during, and after. You either haven't educated yourself on it, or assume that your own sexuality grants you some kind of special insight. It hasn't. I don't have to make assumptions about you, your words are pretty easy to understand.
-Ah well at least your honest. If I would have said "I want people to accept responsibility for their actions and treat others with respect" then I wouldn't have been labeled an enabler. Okay well at least now I sort of know what your agenda is.
Meh, please feel free not to respond to me anymore. We're going in circles. And I don't think we see eye-to-eye on this. You have your opinion, I have my mine.
Have a good day.
No agenda. I comment on a wide variety of topics, particularly those I feel strongly about and feel that nothing but misconceptions are being made. This thread is full of people who neither have the experience or education to be making the widespread assumptions about victims of bullying and the causes of suicide.
No agenda. I comment on a wide variety of topics, particularly those I feel strongly about and feel that nothing but misconceptions are being made. This thread is full of people who neither have the experience or education to be making the widespread assumptions about victims of bullying and the causes of suicide.
I didn't bother to read what you wrote(because if you remember I said we were just going in circles and not to respond to me anymore). So we are just going have to agree to disagree.
For starters, people can keep their hateful opinions to themselves. Any "PARENT" who disowns their child due to being gay is mentally unstable and should not have children.
Religion and the religious need to keep their opinions and view to themselves. You think "gay" is wrong, then fine YOU don't be gay (not you Sunkiss, you plural lol) But the others who are? Live and let live.
I have this crazy theory.. that.. if people took care of themselves and minded their own business.. all of the world's troubles would seriously go away.. lol
"Dr" George "rentboy" Rekers, the prominant anti-gay crusader, has suffered another professional blow recently.
His doctoral thesis from the 1970's, based on "changing" young effeminate boys into "heterosexuals", has recently been exposed as being based on fraudulent research. His work has been used for the past 30 years or more by so-called "ex-gay therapists".
They should take away his "professional" title; any "professional" license he may possess and his membership in the human race.
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Is that what people do now--label people simply because they don't fall for an agenda. Okay, I'll take the label.
It's funny how you keep telling me what I am, and what I'm trying to be. Because you just know me so well. I'll tell you what, if I agree with you and say I'm trying to be a victim will that make you feel better? And I'm not playing a game. You're labeling me simply because I don't have the same idea as you, or because you believe me to be ignorant and not "care" (simply because my way of caring differs from yours). Say what you want, but that is definitely the tone of your posts. And no matter how much you label me, or say I'm part of the problem, it won't change my opinions, or beliefs about this subject, nor will it help this situation.
