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Old 07-31-2011, 02:25 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
1,742 posts, read 959,658 times
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I think there are two main reasons for the decline in religious belief in Europe: The centuries long state support for the church and the impact of two world wars and the resulting totalitarian belief systems.

Historically, in every European country, the church was an integral part of the political establishment. Kings and emperors ruled over the church by appointing the bishops and using the church as an arm of the government. In return, the church was protected and granted many special privelages. It was a cozy relationship that ended up enfeebling the church and making it totally dependent on the government. The church became corrupt, lazy, and abandoned its mission of spreading the gospel of Jesus. The common people, although still nominally "religious", had little stake in the health and vitality of the church or their local congregations. The Reformation corrected this situation a bit, but not by much.

By the time of the Enlightenment, the educated classes were by and large appalled by the corruption and stagnation of the church, and intellectually turned away from Christianity. As urbanization spread and the industrial revolution began, people began pouring into the cities from the countryside. These formerly rural people usually had a relatively simple and uneducated form of the faith, and although largely observant in their former villages, in the newly expanding cities the church did not keep up with population growth by building new churches or even trying to serve the spiritual needs of these people. John Wesley and the Methodist movement in England were about the only example of a movement to address this question and they were somewhat successful, but they didn't really have a counterpart on the continent. These newly urbanized industrial masses gradually became "de-churched" and this was a major factor in the eventual rise of complete secularism and agnosticism.

The church and throne mutually supported each other, and as the old political order in Europe lost legitimacy (the French Revolution, the uprisings of 1848, the struggle against royal absolutism) the church lost legitimacy as well. By the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the government took over most of the charitable work that the church used to perform, so the churches lost another one of their functions in society.

So by the early years of the 20th century, the ground was set for the church to decline as a major force in the lives of the majority of people. The carnage and destruction of the first world war furthered the decline by challenging many people's faith in a just God, and the resultant rise of the twin totalitarianisms of the 20th century (Communism and Fascism) further changed the intellectual landscape. From now on, according to these philosophies, it was either "the Race" or "the Workers" that were God, although in reality this was just a smokescreen for the establishment of totalitarian government, in which the leader was God. Both of these movements tried to destroy Christianity, and in fact did weaken it. The destruction of the Second World War was even worse than the first, and dealt a further blow to religious faith in many people. Behind the Iron Curtain, 2 generations of people grew up under a system where the faith was persecuted and ridiculed. The de-Christianization of Europe accelerated.

You see the results today. In many European countries, the church is still officially supported by the state. In the UK, it is the Prime Minister who appoints the Archbishop of Canterbury, and Parliament has to approve any changes to the Book of Common Prayer (can you even imagine the U.S. Congress getting to vote on the worship practices of any American denomination?! ) The Church of England is the official religion of England, with the Queen as Head of the Church and Defender of the Faith. The same is true of several other countries. In Germany, anyone who is officially a member of a church must pay a church tax (which is a surcharge on their income taxes) to the government, which in turn hands it over to the church. This practice saps the vitality of the church because people don't feel they have any stake in the well-being and growth of the church: the government takes care of it. Until very recently (2001), the Lutheran Church was the official religion of Sweden, supported by the government. Anyone born in the country was automatically enrolled as a member of the church, and if you wanted to opt out, as an adult you had to go to a government offfice and officially have your name removed. Few people bothered to do this, and statistically, Sweden looked like an extremely religious country, with over 90% of the population officiallly Lutheran. In reality, Sweden is probably the least religious countries on Earth. So, in many ways, the church is still part of the political establishment in Europe. And as people have lost faith in "the establishment" all over the western world, the church has suffered as a result.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:29 PM
 
10,854 posts, read 9,303,308 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
Read the article and the Bible and you'll find out.
Most of the countries with the fastest growing economies in the world over the last 20 years with the exception of Brazil are not christian majority nations.

So what's your point?
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:32 PM
 
21,026 posts, read 22,153,076 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
From the article

Among the consequences of Europe's abandonment of its religious roots and the moral code that derives therefrom is a plunge in its birth rates to below the replacement level. Abortion, birth control, acceptance of gay marriage and casual sex are driving the trend. Europe is "committing demographic suicide, systematically depopulating itself," according to Weigel.

This is what happens when you let liberals take control. They destroy the moral and religious principles of a society, and they ultimately destroy themselves as a result. We cannot let them win or take over anymore or else we will become the new Europe. Hell, we're halfway there. This article is more confirmation to me that I serve the right political party.
So liberals ultimately destroy themselves and you want to stop them (????)
Did you KNOW what you were saying?


Sickening to think you think of the religious, especially pedophile priests, as moral and having principles....


How very "religious" of you to turn a blind eye to the crimes and immorality of the right wing.... religion OBVIOUSLY doesn't make one honest....
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:35 PM
 
46,963 posts, read 25,998,208 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
No, it's intelligence. Homosexuality is not natural.
It abounds in nature.

Quote:
If it was, then people who practice it would be able to reproduce.
All sexual behavior has to be targeted towards procreation or be condemned as unnatural?

Quote:
If homosexuality, casual sex, abortion, and all other forms of immorality are rampant and prevalent in a culture or society, then you have a massive population decline. That's a scientific fact.
Care to cite some, y'know, scientif research to support this statement?


Quote:
It's of your own stupidity if you deny it. If you don't have a God you answer to, then most of the time you look to science.
Who told you that whopper? Religion and science aren't what you'd call overlapping spheres. (And incidentally, one can build a quite robust set of ethics without god nor science.)

Quote:
And if science is telling you and confirming the same thing and you won't listen, your simply deluded and ignorant.
You really are sure of the scientific backing for that assertion, aren't you? It will be easy for you to provide a few relevant citations, then.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:36 PM
 
Location: .....
956 posts, read 1,114,412 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
No, it's intelligence. Homosexuality is not natural. If it was, then people who practice it would be able to reproduce. If homosexuality, casual sex, abortion, and all other forms of immorality are rampant and prevalent in a culture or society, then you have a massive population decline. That's a scientific fact. It's of your own stupidity if you deny it. If you don't have a God you answer to, then most of the time you look to science. And if science is telling you and confirming the same thing and you won't listen, your simply deluded and ignorant.
That has more to do with economics than with morality, as you will find that in most post-industrialized states, women are not subjugated to traditional roles and often take up tasks other than child bearing. In other words, women in post-industrialized states have more opportunities than their counterparts in the developing world, and it reflects on the birth rates. Your strawman arguments will only make sense to those who think with such a close minded mentality.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:38 PM
 
4,574 posts, read 7,502,228 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
No, it's intelligence. Homosexuality is not natural. If it was, then people who practice it would be able to reproduce. If homosexuality, casual sex, abortion, and all other forms of immorality are rampant and prevalent in a culture or society, then you have a massive population decline. That's a scientific fact. It's of your own stupidity if you deny it. If you don't have a God you answer to, then most of the time you look to science. And if science is telling you and confirming the same thing and you won't listen, your simply deluded and ignorant.
Oh, this again. I guess the heterosexual couples who aren't able to conceive are somehow unnatural too? Oh, and sex is only for procreation?

And you seriously think that we really need to reproduce? The earth is already overpopulated with humans, and there are many signs to back this up.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:40 PM
 
Location: Flippin AR
5,513 posts, read 5,241,838 times
Reputation: 6243
If religion made people more kind to their neighbors, accepting of others, less likely to steal or commit violence, and generally better, I would say the decline of religion in modern society is a bad thing. But since everything in my life experience proves the opposite, I think modern man is far better off growing up and facing reality, rather than believing in superstition and following the orders of profit-driven and power-driven organized religions.

A rational and logical approach to the world is the only way humanity will survive and thrive. Pretending that a supernatural power is running things and looking out for our welfare is silly at best, and counterproductive at worst. No, there is no Santa Clause, Virginia, just as there is no God. But that doesn't mean we can't use the tools we have to create a prosperous, fair and far better world than the one historical religions gave us.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:44 PM
 
4,574 posts, read 7,502,228 times
Reputation: 2613
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
Read the article and the Bible and you'll find out.
So the United States was definitely a better place in the 1950's than it currently is today. Yep. A time when defacto segregation was prevalent, and racial minorities were highly discriminated against. A time when women were not looked as equal to men, and were expected to stay at the house for the sole purpose of procreation. A time when non-Christians were scrutinized if they questioned the validity of God. A time when homosexuality was as much of a taboo as pedophilia is today. Yep, America sure was amazing back then.
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Old 07-31-2011, 02:48 PM
 
46,963 posts, read 25,998,208 times
Reputation: 29449
Quote:
Originally Posted by africanboy View Post
That has more to do with economics than with morality, as you will find that in most post-industrialized states, women are not subjugated to traditional roles and often take up tasks other than child bearing. In other words, women in post-industrialized states have more opportunities than their counterparts in the developing world, and it reflects on the birth rates.
Also, of course, there's the matter of not having to rely on multiple offspring for support in one's old age. Stability leads to lower birth rates.
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:04 PM
 
15,706 posts, read 11,776,567 times
Reputation: 7020
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenk893 View Post
No, it's intelligence. Homosexuality is not natural. If it was, then people who practice it would be able to reproduce.
Tell that to the entire animal kingdom that has gays in it. If you were actually educated, you would realize homosexuality is an evolutionary control on populations. Of course, gays are also capable of reproducing so your argument is patently stupid.
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