Is U.S. harming Israel's security? Seems so. Sapient points here. (country)

[bugguy]

I agree with you. But aside from Ron Paul, I doubt any of these candidates have ever read or even care about Washington's admonishment, or even the U.S. Constitution. Thomas Jefferson would roll over in his grave if he knew what a perversion we have today that is supposed to pass for a "Republic".

Originally Posted by tablemtn

Overall, it's unseemly for American politicians or presidential candidates to spend so much time worrying about one particular foreign nation. It brings to mind George Washington's caution against "foreign entanglements." Newt and others would do well to re-read those speeches, along with some of the writings of Thomas Jefferson and also John Quincy Adams.

[bugguy]

That's hilarious! Not really. Disgusting would be a better descriptive word. Let's all keep our heads buried in the sand. Google U.S.S. Liberty! And never forget!

Originally Posted by quality guy

Israel is God's nation (country) and our ally and our friend! And, you are WRONG! They're not a hindrance.

[tablemtn]

Israel is God's nation (country) and our ally and our friend!

There are some conceptual problems here, though. First, you'd have to define "supporting Israel." Does it mean trying to bolster whichever government is in power at any given moment within Israel? Israel is a democracy - its leaders, policies, and parties in power have shifted many times over its history.

One point of avoiding "foreign entanglements" is to avoid getting involved in messy local affairs such as those. Once entangled, the US ends up in the position of staking money or aspects of its own policy-making on the behavior of specific foreign governments or individuals within those governments. That's not good for America's overall security or interests.

Second, avoiding "entanglements" does not preclude "friendship" or "amity" or good relations with foreign countries. That's the goal. And one way to help meet that goal is to desist from getting ourselves involved in their internal affairs. Contrary to what some people seem to think, most countries don't really value American interference any more than we'd value theirs.

Also, imagine a situation in which American and Israeli interests happen to conflict. Should the US damage its own interests in such a case? Another reason to avoid foreign entanglements is to ensure that American politicians and policy-makers work toward American interests, and not the interests of an external power.

[quality guy]

Originally Posted by bugguy

That's hilarious! Not really. Disgusting would be a better descriptive word. Let's all keep our heads buried in the sand. Google U.S.S. Liberty! And never forget!

What? you're very confusing?

[djacques]

Originally Posted by majoun

Unfortunately, Israel today is more of a hindrance to the USA than a help to the USA.

That's been true since the beginning. The JCS warned Truman that recognizing Israel would be a disaster in 1948.

[djacques]

Originally Posted by quality guy

Israel is God's nation (country)

Let God help them, then.

and our ally

We do not have any defense treaty with Israel.

and our friend!

With friends like that...

[majoun]

Originally Posted by djacques

That's been true since the beginning. The JCS warned Truman that recognizing Israel would be a disaster in 1948.

I am aware that Secretary of State George Marshall and the US Ambassador to the UN warned Truman against recognizing Israel because they thought doing so would push the Arabs into the arms of the USSR.

[djacques]

Originally Posted by majoun

I am aware that Secretary of State George Marshall and the US Ambassador to the UN warned Truman against recognizing Israel because they thought doing so would push the Arabs into the arms of the USSR.

Are you aware that that's exactly what occurred, and for that precise reason?

[jujulu]

[banjomike]

Originally Posted by quality guy

What? you're very confusing?

The U.S.S. Liberty, AGTR5, was a US Navy intelligence ship that was attacked by the Israeli Air Force during the 7-Day war in 1967, and very nearly sunk.
The attack killed 34 crewmen, and 173 were injured, including the Captain.

The Liberty was sailing in international waters, and had been on station in the area for months. The attack was totally unexpected and unprovoked.

Israel claimed the Liberty was mistaken for an Egyptian freighter, but the 2 ships looked entirely different and were painted in totally different colors; the Lib was painted in standard Navy combat grey, while the freighter carried a wide black stripe next to the deck on a white hull. The stack was also painted with black and white stripes.

During the attack, the Lib signaled the attacking jets and rang up the battle ensign, a flag 4 times larger than the regular flag. The attacks were all carried out at very close range and at low levels.

The incident was hushed up after Israel apologized. The Liberty's Captain was awarded the Medal of Honor, well deserved as he was seriously injured, but stayed on the destroyed bridge for 24 hours, nearly bleeding to death.

The crew was highly decorated as well with other high honors. Their remarkable damage control efforts saved the ship- the engine compartment was severely damaged, a torpedo put a 24x36 foot hole in the waterline, and her keel was twisted. By rights, she should have sunk.

And for this, they got no public recognition whatsoever. The ceremony was held in an old unused hanger in Norfolk, well away from any attention, and the crew was essentially told to shut up.

Ever since then, this event has remained highly disputed.

I served on a sister ship to the Liberty, and I knew several of her crewmen. My ship was identical to the Lib. One of my buddies won the Lifesaving Medal for saving 4 shipmates who were injured in the engine room- he was severely burned by live steam, twice, going and coming, from a ruptured line with every man he carried out and nearly died himself.

Don't try to convince me of how noble Israel is, or how how we should give them our unwavering support. Their excuse was ridiculous. The USS Liberty was clearly identified, was flying our flag, and was attacked at low level and close range. The jets attacked 3 times, and several Israeli torpedo boats followed afterward, but were turned away by Navy Phantoms that arrived on the scene after the Israeli jets left.

Israel is an ally, but it acts on it's own behalf, and is no more or less righteous than any other nation. I have always believed the attack was fully intentional. So did the crew members of the Lib I talked to.

All those religious end-times Biblical revelations don't count for doodley-squat with me.
Ever since then, Israel's actions have caused other American deaths and injuries, and they have dragged us into many messes.
The crew of the Liberty deserve better than they ever got from us, and we never deserved to be treated by our ally like this. I firmly believe the Israelis would do something similar in a heartbeat in the future if it served their purposes.