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Most of the states at that time did not have official state religions. Some did. And since those states ended their affiliations with religion while the Founding Fathers were actually alive, your assertion that the Framers wanted states to be able to choose is illogical. The Framers clearly understood that when a government, federal, state or local, affiliated itself with a religion, that the people under the authority of that government were not free to choose their own religion according to their consciences and reasoning.
They absolutely left religion in the state's hands. If YOU didn't like that religion, you were free to move to a state where you did like it. It's amazing that you so-called "educated' people constantly get this wrong.
They absolutely left religion in the state's hands. If YOU didn't like that religion, you were free to move to a state where you did like it. It's amazing that you so-called "educated' people constantly get this wrong.
Nope, wrong. Government means all government, not just the Feds. The Bill of rights trumps so-called "states rights".
This is true for all who readily submit .. and consider themselves servants of authority, rather than authority be servants of the people.
May your chains of servitude set lightly upon you, and let posterity forget ye were our countrymen.
To be a "citizen" must admit that one is subject to the rule of law, which is the prerogative of state sovereignty. To be "sovereign" admits no superior rule.
They absolutely left religion in the state's hands. If YOU didn't like that religion, you were free to move to a state where you did like it. It's amazing that you so-called "educated' people constantly get this wrong.
If there is anything that can be gleaned from the intent of the framers of the Constitution, it is that our nation was founded on secular principles and not religious doctrine. The founding fathers well knew that the separation of church and state was the only way to preserve religious freedom. Religious wars had been waged in Europe over its union; and, indeed, some of the first colonists, the Pilgrims, came to America to escape state-sponsored religious persecution. Our right to worship freely, without government interference, is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, and not by God. It is time that people of faith reconcile themselves with this fundamental fact.
They absolutely left religion in the state's hands. If YOU didn't like that religion, you were free to move to a state where you did like it. It's amazing that you so-called "educated' people constantly get this wrong.
I would prefer "thinking people" over well-educated ones (they only overlap but that is not guaranteed). Having addressed that, allow me to chime in.
The blind states' rights issue was put to rest with Articles of Confederation in 1789. For that matter, states rights were NEVER to supersede people's rights. What you presume to be "state rights" isn’t quite that but merely a stepping stone towards individual freedoms. A state doesn’t guarantee that. This is why James Madison included the following in his presentation of the Bill of Rights:
"I cannot see any reason against obtaining even a double security on those points; and nothing can give a more sincere proof of the attachment of those who opposed this constitution to these great and important rights, than to see them join in obtaining the security I have now proposed; because it must be admitted, on all hands, that the State Governments are as liable to attack the invaluable privileges as the General Government is, and therefore ought to be as cautiously guarded against."
It was well understood that a government is a government, regardless of the level. Ultimate goal was to have free people. However, it might be worth noting that at the time, such attempts were merely requests as opposed to rules. Replacing Articles of Confederation with the US Constitution itself was a major blow for “state righters”. I have no doubt that the leading founders were being cautious about making the newly formed states play to every idea of theirs. This is also evident in Article I, Section 9, Clause 1 of the US Constitution, clearly to postpone an idea these founders wanted to implement but by two decades (regulation of slave trade). Doing so, shortly after the formation of the USA would have held many states out of it and founders were smart to recognize that.
They absolutely left religion in the state's hands. If YOU didn't like that religion, you were free to move to a state where you did like it. It's amazing that you so-called "educated' people constantly get this wrong.
The people who "get this wrong" don't understand that government means ALL government, from the Feds to the cities/counties. You cannot overrride the Constitution in the name of States rights.
The reality is, contradictory concepts cannot coexist in a healthy and well functioning mind, and therefore such contradictions must be rejected for what it actually is ... pure mind manipulation.
Codswallop. Under that logic, if I wanted to display billboards on public (government) property advertising my private business, they would have no compelling way to prevent me from doing so, after all, I'm just expressing my right to free speech.
If there is anything that can be gleaned from the intent of the framers of the Constitution, it is that our nation was founded on secular principles and not religious doctrine. The founding fathers well knew that the separation of church and state was the only way to preserve religious freedom. Religious wars had been waged in Europe over its union; and, indeed, some of the first colonists, the Pilgrims, came to America to escape state-sponsored religious persecution. Our right to worship freely, without government interference, is guaranteed by the First Amendment to the Constitution, and not by God. It is time that people of faith reconcile themselves with this fundamental fact.
Actually Wendell, I've heard this said so many times ... in various terms ... yet each time it is repeated, has the same effect of turning my stomach. Unfortunately, this simply illustrates the fact that to many, a lie repeated often enough is eventually accepted as the truth. However, the REAL TRUTH is, this tripe really bares no resemblance to the truth at all. And, the levels of denial, or intellectual incompetence, or dishonesty, or pure stupidity required in order to believe such nonsense is truly mind boggling.
The constitution may have been written and structured with the specific intention to create and maintain a "secular" government, but the founding of this nation was based on a much deeper set of spiritual ideals. And one need look no further than our "founding document", The Declaration of Independence, which clearly states those founding principles in it's preamble:
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Clearly, there can be no mistaking the true principles of our Nation's founding, which states unequivocally that we are all created equal, and that we posses unalienable rights given us by God, to which no man or government may deny to us. Further, those principles include the right to change or abolish governments that threaten or deny those God given rights to which each one of us are endowed by our Creator, and are not subject to the arbitrary decision of other men or governments. Those are the fundamental principles for which this Nation was founded.
Anyone who possesses a rudimentary level of literacy could not be so confused as to miss this very clear message, with not one, but TWO direct references to God ... one reference using the very word "God", and the other, "Creator". Then, we have a couple more "inferences" to God, in the commentary which refers to "human events", and "powers of the earth".
Let me repeat, very clearly so as to clear your extreme confusion on this matter .... the PRIMARY PRINCIPLE and driving force and foundation of our nation was that all human beings possess certain rights given them by God to which no other human being or government can take away from them. These are rights you a born with, and are not granted by men, nor by governments, nor by documents like the constitution. You certainly wouldn't be suggesting that prior to 1776, human beings had no rights, would you be? If you are, you're crazy.
The "secular" nature of the construction of our government was never a denial or rejection of God, but was simply the recognition that history demonstrated that certain tyrants often emerge to claim themselves to be the "spokespersons" for God, and that there is no measurable difference in the degree of tyranny that can be imposed by such "theocratic" rulers, as measured against that imposed by a "Monarch" or Royal Ruler, who so often throughout history have claimed their right to rule as "Divine" ... hence the phrase "Divine Rights of Kings".
This modern day confusion, and obfuscation of the truth has one specific purpose now .... that is to do away with God altogether, because if there is no God, then there are obviously no "God given rights", and therefore, any rights you may enjoy must be granted (or denied) to you by ALMIGHTY Government. That's why your head has been filled with such nonsensical tripe ... because government wants to be God, and government is a most jealous God indeed, which demands your undivided loyalty to it.
And it's amazing how STUPID people can be to become so hoodwinked and led down the garden path to the point that they actually INSIST on relinquishing their God given unalienable rights in exchange for the pleasure of begging government tyrants and criminals for their token blessings.
It's actually quite pathetic and disgusting that we have so many among us that lack the basic human dignity which would automatically prevent them from bowing and groveling to despots for a mere pat on the head.
Actually Wendell, I've heard this said so many times ... in various terms ... yet each time it is repeated, has the same effect of turning my stomach. Unfortunately, this simply illustrates the fact that to many, a lie repeated often enough is eventually accepted as the truth. However, the REAL TRUTH is, this tripe really bares no resemblance to the truth at all. And, the levels of denial, or intellectual incompetence, or dishonesty, or pure stupidity required in order to believe such nonsense is truly mind boggling.
The constitution may have been written and structured with the specific intention to create and maintain a "secular" government, but the founding of this nation was based on a much deeper set of spiritual ideals. And one need look no further than our "founding document", The Declaration of Independence, which clearly states those founding principles in it's preamble:
"When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
Clearly, there can be no mistaking the true principles of our Nation's founding, which states unequivocally that we are all created equal, and that we posses unalienable rights given us by God, to which no man or government may deny to us. Further, those principles include the right to change or abolish governments that threaten or deny those God given rights to which each one of us are endowed by our Creator, and are not subject to the arbitrary decision of other men or governments. Those are the fundamental principles for which this Nation was founded.
Anyone who possesses a rudimentary level of literacy could not be so confused as to miss this very clear message, with not one, but TWO direct references to God ... one reference using the very word "God", and the other, "Creator". Then, we have a couple more "inferences" to God, in the commentary which refers to "human events", and "powers of the earth".
Let me repeat, very clearly so as to clear your extreme confusion on this matter .... the PRIMARY PRINCIPLE and driving force and foundation of our nation was that all human beings possess certain rights given them by God to which no other human being or government can take away from them. These are rights you a born with, and are not granted by men, nor by governments, nor by documents like the constitution. You certainly wouldn't be suggesting that prior to 1776, human beings had no rights, would you be? If you are, you're crazy.
The "secular" nature of the construction of our government was never a denial or rejection of God, but was simply the recognition that history demonstrated that certain tyrants often emerge to claim themselves to be the "spokespersons" for God, and that there is no measurable difference in the degree of tyranny that can be imposed by such "theocratic" rulers, as measured against that imposed by a "Monarch" or Royal Ruler, who so often throughout history have claimed their right to rule as "Divine" ... hence the phrase "Divine Rights of Kings".
This modern day confusion, and obfuscation of the truth has one specific purpose now .... that is to do away with God altogether, because if there is no God, then there are obviously no "God given rights", and therefore, any rights you may enjoy must be granted (or denied) to you by ALMIGHTY Government. That's why your head has been filled with such nonsensical tripe ... because government wants to be God, and government is a most jealous God indeed, which demands your undivided loyalty to it.
And it's amazing how STUPID people can be to become so hoodwinked and led down the garden path to the point that they actually INSIST on relinquishing their God given unalienable rights in exchange for the pleasure of begging government tyrants and criminals for their token blessings.
It's actually quite pathetic and disgusting that we have so many among us that lack the basic human dignity which would automatically prevent them from bowing and groveling to despots for a mere pat on the head.
The Declaration of Independence was not a foundational document; and Thomas Jefferson's ideas about "unalienable rights" was not adopted by the framers of the Constitution. All men are not created equal, they are equal under the law; and the rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness are not unalienable, they are subject to law. God-given rights are only good in heaven; in this world, one need have recourse to the law. That's the way it is. Get used to it.
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