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I am sorry, but you are comparing apples to oranges. I am a white person, by the way who happens to live in the south. While I understand that there are poor white areas, whites have not been systematically screwed by state and local governments right down to towns and neighborhood assns.
Basically this article lays out, using a case study some the problems I am referring to pretty well. These folks' problems stem purely from what I am talking about.
You obviously did not read the article because it is from 2005 describing the situation in 2005. Furthermore, I have been to a lot of areas like that. In fact I went to one a few weeks ago. They are still very much there and as it says underbounding is pretty much a direct result of segregation.
Furthermore, teenage births I would argue are a direct result of these problems, especially in terms of schools systems and education. The fact is if you have a poor education system you are going to have a whole lot more teenage births and predominantly African American school systems that exist because people drew lines to make them that way, and particularly rural ones tend to be bad because they are starved for resources.
You obviously did not read the article because it is from 2005 describing the situation in 2005. Furthermore, I have been to a lot of areas like that. In fact I went to one a few weeks ago. They are still very much there and as it says underbounding is pretty much a direct result of segregation.
Your example is local... Mine is national.
Please address it...I don't care to address your exception. Mine is a norm. And a much bigger issue.
These dogs here are the same race, the dog race. Ohh and if you think some dogs are more intelligent or athletic
than other dogs, then you are a racist, all dogs are created equal.
All of these dogs can be classified as a poodle, if you don't think they are a poodle, then you are a racist.
Please address it...I don't care to address your exception. Mine is a norm. And a much bigger issue.
Sry. I ninja edited...see the second paragraph. As to what you say, it is hardly local. As the article states, if you had bothered to read it, this is the norm in small towns throughout the south where the super vast majority of rural dwelling African Americans live you are simply choosing to ignore it as a problem just because it is ruins your argument.
Sry. I ninja edited...see the second paragraph. As to what you say it is hardly local. It is in small towns throughout the south where the super vast majority of rural dwelling African Americans live you are simply choosing to ignore it as a problem just because it is ruins your argument
And the same can be said for you...lol..
Seriously, bringing children into unstable environments highly increases the chance of continuing the cycle.
"You can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy"....
Simply putting a person with out of whack values and/or unstable upbringing in a nice home and school is not going to fix anything. By your assessment, it does.
I live in the south as well, I am in NC. I moved here from NJ. Where I am it's pretty diverse. Even though my children are multiracial and have white skin (my wife is Dominican), they are a minority in their class.
My older son, for example, is in a classroom which is comprised of 6 latinos, 10 African-Americans, 4 White kids and an Asian.
My sons school tests HORRIBLE... I mean, bottom of the barrel. But my sons whip ass. They are proficient in reading and they are proficient in math. And I refuse to take them out and move them because it is a cop out.
Their school in NJ? Same exact circumstances.
Now, you tell me....What is the common denominator here?
You aren't destroying any argument. You are just flinging junk and hoping the old tried and true rhetoric sticks.
Seriously, bringing children into unstable environments highly increases the chance of continuing the cycle.
"You can take the boy out of the country but you can't take the country out of the boy"....
Simply putting a person with out of whack values and/or unstable upbringing in a nice home and school is not going to fix anything. By your assessment, it does.
I live in the south as well, I am in NC. I moved here from NJ. Where I am it's pretty diverse. Even though my children are multiracial and have white skin (my wife is Dominican), they are a minority in their class.
My older son, for example, is in a classroom which is comprised of 6 latinos, 10 African-Americans, 4 White kids and an Asian.
My sons school tests HORRIBLE... I mean, bottom of the barrel. But my sons whip ass. They are proficient in reading and they are proficient in math. And I refuse to take them out and move them because it is a cop out.
Their school in NJ? Same exact circumstances.
Now, you tell me....What is the common denominator here?
You aren't destroying any argument. You are just flinging junk and hoping the old tried and true rhetoric sticks.
Uh yes in why do you think these environments are unstable in the first place? Do you think it might have something to do with a history of the governments (both state and local) not giving a lick if they are stable or not for hundreds of years, or do you believe it is magic?
I seriously doubt you live in an environment that has the kinds of problems these communities have. For example, if you call the police how long does it take them to show up where you live? If you have the kinds of problems these communities have, while you are in a town since you don't have town services, you don't get town police, and as a result it takes 20-30 minutes for the county sheriff to respond to a call. Criminals figure this out and as a result all the crime in the town migrates to your neighborhood. I take it you don't have this problem. Do you think it might be a bit more difficult for your kid to grow up well if drug dealers and gangs operated near your house with impunity? Do you think if a kid did not have to be exposed to that kind of thing they might have a better chance? My guess based on what you say is no...being around large amounts of criminal activity does not impact children, its all these amorphus "values."
Now do you have reliable water and sewer in your house? Do you think child rearing might be influenced by having reliable water in sewer, or do you just need to waive the "values" wand and having reliable water and sewer will mean little to a child being able to focus on growing and studying?
How about public parks and a neighborhood that is free of landfills and illegal dumping. I guess that does not matter either in terms of whether a child can play outside and grow its all values.
What about a lack of suitable employment, shops and businesses? I guess as a parent you don't need a job as long as you have got those good old fashoned values, living in an area with chronic high unemployment and state sanctioned economic neglict will have no impact on parents or families' ability to stay intact.
Basically you are overlooking all sorts of factors and replacing them with these amporhus "values" which make problems facing many African American communities in the rural south very easy to describe and equally easy to assign blame.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 03-18-2012 at 10:21 PM..
The point of the thread is to show that all people are the same. The children will set the example. The problem called racism comes from people that want to control others. Whether it be for money, political power or personal benefits.
And the means to achieve that control is through access to the state's monopoly on the power to coerce, which believers in parliamentary democracy view as a last resort, moderated via checks and balances. That is a lesson some of the newer and more-strident here need to study more closely.
Except in a lot of cases they are not. In the south African Americans were, as a group, systematically disadvantaged very directly by the government, both economically and in terms of basic human fairness and dignity from about 1619-1965, and in some cases longer. I really don't think anyone can dispute that fact and that just doesn't go away because we all decide to be color blind. The fact remains that African American communities especially in the south tend to have worse infrustructure, be poorer, have more environmental hazards, have fewer resources, worse schools etc. then their white neighbors as a direct result of the policy choices made during that period. Once more it was often the practice during the segregation era to use restrictive covenants, selective annexation, and other laws to keep African Americans from buying property in desirable areas and give whites preference in hiring and education.
Heck even today a lot of places haven't even really had effective school desegregation because of school district lines that were drawn in the 1930s and 1940s to separate out blacks and whites are still in force.
That is not to say a lot of progress hasn't been made, but to think that in less then 50 years we can undue a 350 year history of racist policies designed to keep African Americans poor, uneducated, and without access to justice is well...naive.
I must respectfully disagree. The amount of resentment created by a policy which has been applied nationally to address localized grievances has made the entire policy counterproductive. In addition, as you are probably aware, AA has been co-opted by other, less needy groups (middle-class white women come to mind), and produced remedies for problems which were never even clearly defined. All at the cost of depriving other, innocent citizens of basic rights and opportunities.
And, surely --- you are not arguing that we need 300 more years of Affirmative Action. Or are you?
I must respectfully disagree. The amount of resentment created by a policy which has been applied nationally to address localized grievances has made the entire policy counterproductive. In addition, as you are probably aware, AA has been co-opted by other, less needy groups (middle-class white women come to mind), and produced remedies for problems which were never even clearly defined. All at the cost of depriving other, innocent citizens of basic rights and opportunities.
And, surely --- you are not arguing that we need 300 more years of Affirmative Action. Or are you?
I am not specifically arguing about affirmative action that would keep me up until 3 am discussing what I think about that. I am simply arguing that we have a hell of a long way to go as a country before we really become "color blind" and that there are still incredibly powerful lingering effects of the de jure racism that existed in America and particularly in the South where I live. As to when they will go away I have no idea, hopefully soon, but in the mean time it is naive to ignore them.
Edit: I will say this one gem of insight and that is that I think the role of AA is overstated vs people's perception of it. I have known employers that basically use it as an easy let down to reject white male job candidates even if they hire another white male candidate for the job.
Last edited by Randomstudent; 03-18-2012 at 10:59 PM..
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