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But you ignore the Foreign investments that ford made at the latter part of his career seeing sotuh america had a huge potential for product growth at lower price. Even then did Ford really do what he said or were they just rethoric much like a politcan .I woud say lookig at his investment later he saw the world as being his home really and social justice demanded that the wolrd have equal consideration.Naturally after WWII when much of the world was destroyed we became the worlds manufacturer.No western country can ignore the wolrd market especailly the massive potential of the merging markets demand potential and declining demand in western world and keep up with the jones in standard of living.Most of the western worlds demand was debt driven in last deacdes.
Social Justice does NOT mean he didnt do it to save himself money.
This is exactly what I've been saying. It isn't an either/or proposition!
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
Tell me Helen, (maybe you'll answer this one, which I doubt considering you wont answer anythign else),
Just because you aren't getting the answers that YOU want, doesn't mean that I'm not speaking to the issue of the thread. You are just myopic in your thinking.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
if Ford was such an advocate of Social Justice, why was there a need to unionize the company, why did Ford shut down plants rather than negotiate with Unions, why did Ford regulate actions in his employees private lives such as drinking, and gambling?
you seem to be working under the assumption that anyone concerned with social justice always does everything perfectly. As far as I know unions do not equal social justice. Are Buffett's employees unionized? And preventing people from drinking and gambling was very popular, especially from a religious perspective, especially back then. You seem to be working from a very limited understanding of how the notion of social justice gets constructed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
it was Cousens who created the polity to pay their employees more, not Ford.
Ford supported this obviously. And he spoke quite clearly: "We believe," said Mr. Ford, "in making 20,000 men prosperous and contented rather than follow the plan of making a few slave-drivers in our establishment of multi-millionaires."
Prosperity is an end that goes well beyond capital accumulation but a society cannot have prosperity without capital accumulation.
You should read Theory of Moral Sentiments.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
Ford was a pioneer of "welfare capitalism", designed to improve the lot of his workers and especially to reduce the heavy turnover that had many departments hiring 300 men per year to fill 100 slots. Efficiency meant hiring and keeping the best workers.[20]
I already talked about welfare capitalism. And you are only proving my point that intentions don't have to be singular. Just because a wikipedia article uses "especially" to talk about turnover doesn't mean that social justice was somehow secondary. Those intentions go hand-in-hand.
Honestly, why can't you embrace that? Why do you insist on a totally utilitarian reading that emphasizes utility and wealth maximization over everything else?
This is exactly what I've been saying. It isn't an either/or proposition!
Thats not even close to what you've been saying..
Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen
Nope, you are wrong:
Everyone could have simply saved themself time by stopping when I corrected the OP on the very first page.. I didnt even bother reading the rest of your posting.
Everyone could have simply saved themself time by stopping when I corrected the OP on the very first page.. I didnt even bother reading the rest of your posting.
Well at least you admit that you don't even bother reading posts but keep on arguing anyway. Not exactly an intelligent way to debate. But it does explain a lot about your posts on this forum.
As an aside you might also read the NYT article that Ford wrote in the 1930s about the corrupting nature of wealth. I think you'll enjoy it. Will certainly complicating your thinking about things.
Well at least you admit that you don't even bother reading posts but keep on arguing anyway. Not exactly an intelligent way to debate. But it does explain a lot about your posts on this forum.
As an aside you might also read the NYT article that Ford wrote in the 1930s about the corrupting nature of wealth. I think you'll enjoy it. Will certainly complicating your thinking about things.
I didnt continue to read your post because you admitted I was correct, while proceeding to argue with me.
Dont pretend to school me about having an intelligent debate because YOU started this babbling nonsense when you said I was wrong, but have yet to show me where I'm wrong, even though you keep telling me I am. Sorry, but you saying it, isnt validation because Ford says I'm not..
let me guess, who should I believe, some anonymous internet poster who cant even stay on topic, or Ford, in regards to Fords motivation. I know, you must be shocked I dont just take your word for it.. haha
I didnt continue to read your post because you admitted I was correct, while proceeding to argue with me.
Dont pretend to school me about having an intelligent debate because YOU started this babbling nonsense when you said I was wrong, but have yet to show me where I'm wrong, even though you keep telling me I am. Sorry, but you saying it, isnt validation because Ford says I'm not..
let me guess, who should I believe, some anonymous internet poster who cant even stay on topic, or Ford, in regards to Fords motivation. I know, you must be shocked I dont just take your word for it.. haha
I never asked you to take my word for it. I backed up my interpretations with both secondary and primary texts.
And you were wrong. You were wrong because you told the OP, he was absolutely wrong:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead
My recollection is that the great industrialist Henry Ford aspired to build the Model T so that his own employees could afford one. He hypothesized, rightly I think, that consumption by the middle class is the foundation for all material wealth in an economy. I think this mentality has been lost in recent decades. You can have corporate profits through the roof and the stock market soaring, but when the middle class incomes are eroded and they cannot consume, the whole thing comes crashing down.
The trend for at least three decades has been to move wealth from the middle class to the wealthiest classes. It has undermined our economy. Tax cuts for billionaires make perfect sense if the billionaire are buying influence in our political system. It makes no sense if we want to rebuild our economy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pghquest
Your recollection would be wrong, as usual.
Henry Ford aspired to build model T's so he could become wealthy, he paid his employees more than the prevailing wage at the time because his average employee lasted 3 months and he was paying a fortune in retraining costs. By increasing wages, he cut his own costs and made himself richer..
If you think creating a business and paying their employees 2-3 times the prevailing wage, please start a business and let me know how that works out for you..
Quote:
Originally Posted by helenejen
Nope, you are wrong:
"In the rancorous debate over how to get the sluggish economy moving, we have forgotten the wisdom of Henry Ford. In 1914, not long after the Ford Motor Company came out with the Model T, Ford made the startling announcement that he would pay his workers the unheard-of wage of $5 a day.
Not only was it a matter of social justice, Ford wrote, but paying high wages was also smart business. When wages are low, uncertainty dogs the marketplace and growth is weak. But when pay is high and steady, Ford asserted, business is more secure because workers earn enough to become good customers. They can afford to buy Model Ts."
I've been saying it was both from the get go. You are the one who keeps insisting, in spite of Ford's own words, that nothing but pure profits drove Ford. That isn't true.
Henry Ford aspired to build model T's so he could become wealthy, he paid his employees more than the prevailing wage at the time because his average employee lasted 3 months and he was paying a fortune in retraining costs. By increasing wages, he cut his own costs and made himself richer..
If you think creating a business and paying their employees 2-3 times the prevailing wage, please start a business and let me know how that works out for you..
Yup. That is true, pg.
But it is true that Ford also raised the wages so his employees could buy a car. In the end, Henry made out better by doing this, as he sold many cars to his workers directly and had no dealer discounts on them. Ford made out in both ways.
It is also true that Ford was not exactly kind or considerate toward his workers. By his direction, floor bosses commonly pulled workers off the line and beat them up if the boss thought they weren't working fast enough, and eventually, the excedllent wages alone were not enough.
Ford Motors went through the longest a bloodiest auto worker strike of the 30's.
Heavy machine guns were employed in one fight. Eventually, Ford caved in, but only because the strike cost Ford Motors it's #1 position in the industry to GM, who made huge profits over the 18 months of the shut-out strike. This strike, along with Ford's determination to keep producing the obsolete Model T over the new and competitive Model A, lost Ford it's dominance in the car market for the following 50 years.
Henry Ford was also a Nazi sympathizer and a big fan of Adolph Hitler. His support of the proto-Nazi American Bund was a major reason he was forced out of his position and was replaced by his son.
As a young man, Ford put America and most of the world on motorized wheels. As an older man, Ford squandered much of what he had created.
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